Freethought & Rationalism Archive

storytime · 07-10-2008, 06:21 AM

Ohmi

I think you're improperly identifying "Israel". In the story, Jesus is sent to the lost sheep in the house of Israel. This means Jesus was sent to the sons of Jacob. Many different tribal names are represented in the story. Sons of Jacob were living[scattered] throughout the middle east in many different cities. It was to these that Jesus commanded his disciples take the gospel to in sons of Jacob called Israel. None were Gentile. It was not meant that uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles be included as equals to the sons of Jacob. Jesus said it as "it is not meant that the childrens bread[children of Israel's tradition, customs, laws] be given to dogs - non Jewish people who had never received those customs, laws, and tradition established for sons of Jacob only. And the only means by which a lawless and uncircumcised Gentile could possibly be seen as an equal to a Jew was in conversion to Judaism. That made possible for "one law for both the Jew and the Gentile[convert]". Else, God would have been seen as unequal and unfair.

Jesus said he did not come to save the righteous Jews, but those who needed to be healed in their unrighteousness. The righteous Jews needed no savior, needed no forgiveness. They were already judged as righteous by keeping, observing, their standards of laws as commanded. "Those who are well need no physician". Jesus debated the Pharisees about law as the word of God. These two factions in Jesus and the Pharisees could not agree.

ohmi · 07-10-2008, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Ohmi
I think you're improperly identifying "Israel".

I think not, Israel are the descendants of Jacob, both of the house of Judah [Jews , keeping Judaism] and of the House of Israel [following Ephraim, idol-worshippers , never became Jews]

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

Quote:

In the story, Jesus is sent to the lost sheep in the house of Israel. This means Jesus was sent to the sons of Jacob.

The House of Israel are indeed sons of Jacob, but they never were Jews and were rejected by the Jews for idol-worshiping ... even today most Jews simply will not even discuss Ephraim and the House of Israel.

Quote:

Many different tribal names are represented in the story. Sons of Jacob were living[scattered] throughout the middle east in many different cities.

Not just the Middle East, but all over the world [above quote]

Quote:

It was to these that Jesus commanded his disciples take the gospel to in sons of Jacob called Israel. None were Gentile. It was not meant that uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles be included as equals to the sons of Jacob. Jesus said it as "it is not meant that the childrens bread[children of Israel's tradition, customs, laws] be given to dogs - non Jewish people who had never received those customs, laws, and tradition established for sons of Jacob only. And the only means by which a lawless and uncircumcised Gentile could possibly be seen as an equal to a Jew was in conversion to Judaism. That made possible for "one law for both the Jew and the Gentile[convert]". Else, God would have been seen as unequal and unfair.

Gentiles may indeed legally become part of Israel , but there is a problem because Judaism is corrupt, and as Jesus pointed out, was already corrupt by his time

Quote:

Jesus said he did not come to save the righteous Jews, but those who needed to be healed in their unrighteousness. The righteous Jews needed no savior, needed no forgiveness. They were already judged as righteous by keeping, observing, their standards of laws as commanded. "Those who are well need no physician". Jesus debated the Pharisees about law as the word of God. These two factions in Jesus and the Pharisees could not agree.

Righteousness is mainly by the new covenant [Jer 31:31-34] with those whose forefathers BROKE the old covenant , not just with a remnant of the Jews, but also with a remnant of the House of Israel.

spamandham · 07-10-2008, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

God required Israel to survive and there was no way to survive without fighting then

So God, who is completely self sufficient and without need, needed Israel to survive. And God, who is omnipotent, had his hands tied.

Plus, Israel was destroyed anyway.

If you ever wake up from your faith induced slumber, you'll see how absurd the things you are saying here are.

ohmi · 07-10-2008, 02:29 PM

[quote=spamandham;5439192]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

God required Israel to survive and there was no way to survive without fighting then

Quote:

So God, who is completely self sufficient and without need, needed Israel to survive. And God, who is omnipotent, had his hands tied.

Having all power does not mean that one does not use it wisely ... God showed His power by declaring from the beginning that Israel's descendants will form His perfect priesthood in His kingdom (when it is established upon the [new] earth):-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The priesthood then ministers as kings and priests over the many resurrected from this earth at the second resurrection , the many who went by the broad way to know Jesus in the next life, not this one , saved later :-

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God, which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Quote:

Plus, Israel was destroyed anyway.

Israel is very much alive, not only in the Jews , but in the lost paganised idol-worshiping House of Israel, a nation that vanished in name, but exists scattered worldwide amongst the gentiles [and was scattered long before the Jews , but has NEVER accepted Judaism, unlike all the Jews]

Quote:

If you ever wake up from your faith induced slumber, you'll see how absurd the things you are saying here are.

When you awaken, as prophesied that you will, from men convincing you of your misplaced faith in current inconsistent abuse of logic in 'reason' [proven incomplete ,yet used as if complete] and discover your own heart of Love for all that cannot wholly be denied by anyone , then you will see how absurd, unreasoned, and inconsistent is what you have said here ...

:Cheeky:

:wave:

spamandham · 07-10-2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

Israel is very much alive, not only in the Jews ,

Make up your mind. Did god need Israel to survive or not? If it lived on even after it was destroyed, then why did god need to promote war to keep it going for a little while. Your god sounds rather incompetent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

When you awaken, as prophesied that you will,

Prophecy shmophecy. The last thing the world needs is more holy prophets spreading false hope wholly for profit. That type of nonsense has resulted in enough senseless violence and oppression already. You won't find many here who will fall for that type of scam.

This is typically the point where the faith huckster threatens me with eternal punishment if I don't wise up. But I'm sure you're more sophisticated than that.

storytime · 07-11-2008, 08:30 AM

Ohmi,

Is your argument for Gentile inclusion or exclusion in the House of Israel?

storytime · 07-11-2008, 08:40 AM

Concerning the resurrection:

There is portrayed a first resurrection and a second death. You may have these confused?

Anyway, here's my take on the subject. The first resurrection is in Christ where the second death hath no power. All who believed in Jesus were in the first resurrection. Jesus is shown to have "raised up" the dead while he was still alive. (Mt.11:5) These in Christ would not suffer a second death but would live in Christ forever. In other words, they would be priests of Christ throughout the generations of Israel. These priests were not Gentiles. All were sons of Jacob either home born or adopted via conversion to Judaism.

The second death was portrayed as those who had heard the gospel but did not believe it. And these were said to try and crucify Christ a second time, thus fitting a blasphemous judgment and the unforgiveable sin - treason. They were turned over to Satan, and hell was their fate.

ohmi · 07-11-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Ohmi,

Is your argument for Gentile inclusion or exclusion in the House of Israel?

It's not my argument, but rather the scripture says who the House of Israel are ... and that they have been living as gentiles scattered amongst the gentiles , worshiping pagan gods, from long before Jesus arrived... long before the Jews were scattered .

Yet the House of Israel are all true descendants of Jacob and this vanished nation is prophesied to be re-united with the Jews under the messiah [the Christ, the one king of both divided parts of Israel]

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

This is why Jesus said that he was sent by God ONLY to the House of Israel ... because the remnant of the House of Israel are who eventually convince the Jews that Jesus is their long-awaited messiah :-

Deuteronomy 32:21 ... I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

There is only one nation which are not a people , The House of Israel , and they have a new covenant with God to be unconditionally forgiven (grace) [Jer 31:31-34] :-

1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Thus the House of Israel emerges from the gentiles, but, after millenia living as gentiles, they are likely indistinguishable from gentiles and likely have forgotten their ancestry after so long [unlike many Jews].

In any case Jesus states that the mass of the gentiles, who go by the broad way to him through death and the second resurrection , will indeed be saved, but not until much later [Rev 7:9-10] than the few [144,000] taken at his return.

ohmi · 07-11-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Concerning the resurrection:

Quote:

There is portrayed a first resurrection and a second death. You may have these confused?

There is a resurrection of the just [few saints] of this earth AND a resurrection of the unjust [all the many sinners] of this earth :-

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment .

-So all the countless sinners of this world are resurrected after the millenium, but the saints are resurrected at Jesus' return before the millenium :-

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The second death then is indeed a second death after one's first death as a sinner and after one's resurrection after the millenium , a second death only for those who continue to sin after being freed from sin by their first death :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

All then are freed from hell by resurrection , but at different times for saints [saved by grace of Israel's new covenant with God] and for sinners [freed from sin by death and thus having opportunity in the kingdom come to be saved by works in te enw earth before judgment day :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Quote:

Anyway, here's my take on the subject. The first resurrection is in Christ where the second death hath no power. All who believed in Jesus were in the first resurrection. Jesus is shown to have "raised up" the dead while he was still alive. (Mt.11:5) These in Christ would not suffer a second death but would live in Christ forever. In other words, they would be priests of Christ throughout the generations of Israel. These priests were not Gentiles. All were sons of Jacob either home born or adopted via conversion to Judaism.

This is essentially true to the scripture , but one should note that ONLY a tiny remnant few ,only 144,000 , of the descendants of Jacob are redeemed at Jesus' return [Rev 7:3-8] and these not saved of themselves, but simply redeemed because of God's promise that Israel will be his royal priesthood in the kingdom ...

Obviously God does not require billions of people as priests and kings, but consider that the ONLY ones these kings and priests can rule over and minister to are the hosts of sinners resurrected at the second resurrection [in the kingdom come in the new earth]

Quote:

The second death was portrayed as those who had heard the gospel but did not believe it.

The scripture does not say that ... the second death is literally a second death for those who continue to sin after the second resurrection [those of teh first resurrection being beyond death through translation to spirit after their resurrection to life , because they perfected their love in this life, followed Jesus in ceasing all sin in this life]

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Quote:

And these were said to try and crucify Christ a second time, thus fitting a blasphemous judgment and the unforgiveable sin - treason. They were turned over to Satan, and hell was their fate.

Nevertheless , all people are freed from sin by death, and all are released from hell to the body [as Jesus showed by his own release] -see above quotes :-

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell ...

storytime · 07-11-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Ohmi,

Is your argument for Gentile inclusion or exclusion in the House of Israel?

It's not my argument, but rather the scripture says who the House of Israel are ... and that they have been living as gentiles scattered amongst the gentiles , worshiping pagan gods, from long before Jesus arrived...

Yet the House of Israel are all true descendants of Jacob and this vanished nation is prophesied to be re-united with the Jews under the messiah [the Christ, the one king of both divided parts of Israel]

* However, there is the little stickler by which Jesus told his disciples that in Gods own time would the kingdom (of Judah) be restored to Israel. Jesus said, it was not for the disciples to know the time or the season which God had put in his own power. In other words, Jesus didn't have a clue as to when the restoration in unity would take place.

* So.. what you are saying is that the ten tribes under Jeroboam was called Israel? And the Jews were not called Israel as they separated under the son of Solomon, Rehoboam? The Jews maintained the covenant of circumcision and law of Moses and the ten tribes declared themselves free from those things?

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

* Read also Ezekiel 11:14-21

This is why Jesus said that he was sent by God ONLY to the House of Israel ... because the remnant of the House of Israel are who eventually convince the Jews that Jesus is their long-awaited messiah :-

* Those Jews who were obedient to their laws had no need to be convinced of a messiah, a savior. For their God was their salvation and the laws the voice of God in the midst of them. I think Jesus was merely a disgruntled priest whose purpose was to unseat the Pharisees at Jerusalem.

* As a priest Jesus duty would have been to speak to his brethren in Israel - train his disciple students to do the same. "Go not in the way of the Gentiles, nor the city of the Samaratans enter not, but go to the lost sheep in the house of Israel."

* Supposedly, God always knew those who were his, because they were circumcised and observed the laws of Moses. If the lost were not marked in circumcision and did not observe laws of Moses, then how were the disciples to know who was who?

Deuteronomy 32:21 ... I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

There is only one nation which are not a people , The House of Israel , and they have a new covenant with God to be unconditionally forgiven (grace) [Jer 31:31-34] :-

* When they returned to Him, He would remember their sins no more. A conditional precept.

* Doesn't make sense. For "Grace" was available to the OT people in Israel. Grace was purposed in ignorance, else the whole nation would have been sentenced to death.

1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

* Peter lied. Paul lied. Jesus lied.

Thus the House of Israel emerges from the gentiles, but, after millenia living as gentiles, they are likely indistinguishable from gentiles and likely have forgotten their ancestry after so long [unlike many Jews].

In any case Jesus states that the mass of the gentiles, who go by the broad way to him through death and the second resurrection , will indeed be saved, but not until much later [Rev 7:9-10] than the few [144,000] taken at his return.

* Isn't it the narrow way? The broad way leading to destruction?

* Jesus isn't returning. Gentiles (non Jewish people) had no reason to be saved, God said "I will bring back.

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07-10-2008, 06:21 AM	#101
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	Ohmi I think you're improperly identifying "Israel". In the story, Jesus is sent to the lost sheep in the house of Israel. This means Jesus was sent to the sons of Jacob. Many different tribal names are represented in the story. Sons of Jacob were living[scattered] throughout the middle east in many different cities. It was to these that Jesus commanded his disciples take the gospel to in sons of Jacob called Israel. None were Gentile. It was not meant that uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles be included as equals to the sons of Jacob. Jesus said it as "it is not meant that the childrens bread[children of Israel's tradition, customs, laws] be given to dogs - non Jewish people who had never received those customs, laws, and tradition established for sons of Jacob only. And the only means by which a lawless and uncircumcised Gentile could possibly be seen as an equal to a Jew was in conversion to Judaism. That made possible for "one law for both the Jew and the Gentile[convert]". Else, God would have been seen as unequal and unfair. Jesus said he did not come to save the righteous Jews, but those who needed to be healed in their unrighteousness. The righteous Jews needed no savior, needed no forgiveness. They were already judged as righteous by keeping, observing, their standards of laws as commanded. "Those who are well need no physician". Jesus debated the Pharisees about law as the word of God. These two factions in Jesus and the Pharisees could not agree.

07-11-2008, 08:30 AM	#106
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	Ohmi, Is your argument for Gentile inclusion or exclusion in the House of Israel?

07-11-2008, 08:40 AM	#107
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	Concerning the resurrection: There is portrayed a first resurrection and a second death. You may have these confused? Anyway, here's my take on the subject. The first resurrection is in Christ where the second death hath no power. All who believed in Jesus were in the first resurrection. Jesus is shown to have "raised up" the dead while he was still alive. (Mt.11:5) These in Christ would not suffer a second death but would live in Christ forever. In other words, they would be priests of Christ throughout the generations of Israel. These priests were not Gentiles. All were sons of Jacob either home born or adopted via conversion to Judaism. The second death was portrayed as those who had heard the gospel but did not believe it. And these were said to try and crucify Christ a second time, thus fitting a blasphemous judgment and the unforgiveable sin - treason. They were turned over to Satan, and hell was their fate.

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