dtwof

I am embarrassed that I am not better educated on this topic but hey, I am seeking to educate myself now.

Is Israel's claim to the 'holy land' based only on biblical promises? I have heard that it is, but I have also heard that the Israelites had a historically valid claim to the land before the Palestinians. So, taking only secular history into account, who was there first?

ernestombayo

Apart from the synagogues,jewish architecture,palaces,jewish settlements,towns?,all archeology and history is very clear to who were in Israel first.

"Evidence of a Jewish presence in Israel dates back 3,400 years.The archeological record indicates that the Jewish people evolved out of native Cana'anite peoples and invading tribes. Some time between about 1800 and 1500 B.C.

The name Palaestina, which became Palestine in English, is derived from Herodotus, who used the term Palaistine Syria to refer to the entire southern part of Syria, meaning "Philistine Syria." Most of the Jews who continued to practice their religion fled or were forcibly exiled from Palestine, eventually forming a second Jewish Diaspora. However, Jewish communities continued to exist, primarily in the Galilee, the northernmost part of Palestine. Palestine was governed by the Roman Empire until the fourth century A.D. (300's) and then by the Byzantine Empire.

The first muslim arabs to enter Israel was in the 600AD's.Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900's. "

Kharakov

Wait, where did the Israeli's live prior to exodus? (not bonded by blood, you metalhead)

mg01

There are some Biblical events that secular history agrees with. In 722 BCE the Assyrians "annex" northern Israel/Sameria. Southern Judah (including Jerusalem) seems to have been saved when Hezekiah paid Assyria off. The events were simply part of a larger scale expansion of the neo-Assyrian empire in the 8th century which eventually over expanded and was defeated by the Babylonians in the 6th century. The Babylonians move on Judah around 586 BCE. They treat it intially as a vassel but after several revolts and deportations take full control. In 539 Cyrus takes Babylonia and Judah becomes a Persian providence. 333 Alexander shows up. Following that it was ruled by the Seleucid and Ptolomaic empires, then the Romans around 60 BCE.

As far as anything prior to 722 BCE, all there really is the Bible, which claims that YHWH the Elohim decided to give the land to Abraham sometime around 1800 BCE. His decendents however all but died out save Joseph and his 70 relatives who grew to over 2 million in Egypt over a period of roughly 450 years. Finally YHWH decided they had been there long enough and led them to Sinia. There he had them spend another 40 years to "cleanse" them due to punishment over an issue where Moses let his ego get the best of him and didn't follow instructions, before his sucessor, Joshua, lead them on a mass murdering spree where to rid the land of the unworthy Amorites, Canaanites, Edonites, Moabites, etc... The land is divided up into 12 parcels for the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel and after a period of rule under 12 judges, Saul of Israel is chosen king, followed by David and his son Solomon who ruled the land from "the river in Egypt to the river in Babylon." This kingdom is said to have split and each had a different line of kings down to the dissappearance of Israel in 722 and Judah in 586.

Mind you much of this is supported historically with external evidence, and what evidence there is from archeology and such actually challenges much of the validity. For one thing for much of Biblical history the levant was under the control of the Egyptians, at least up untill around 1100 BCE. There is a stela from an Egytian Pharoh found in the Levant dated around 1200 BCE that mentions Israel as a people, that may refer to what archeologists refer to as the "hill people" that settled north of Jerusalem toward the end of the bronze age.

Much of the period between 1100 and 900 is a black hole archeological wise, precisely during the period of David and Soloman's great empire. (If there was a kingdom, it still hasn't been found.) These hill people however are regarded by some as the "proto-Israelites", basically displaced Canaanites who transitioned from city to rual life in large numbers following the "bronze age collapse". The hills themselves show a period of settlement and abandonment for centuries prior to 1200, but this was the first sizeable and lasting one. At least some portion of this group apparantly worshiped YHWH who was early on somehow tied to the Canaanite pantheon that included deities such as El, Baal, Mot, Yam, Lotan, Zedek, Resheph, Dagon, Shemesh, and lots others you can find references to in the Bible. The long and the short of it, apparently the earliest Israelites, where Canaanites.

As a term, Canaan comes from the Egyptian word for the area of the Levant. Palistine too doesn't really refer to a specific people, but the land. But an Israelite however, is a decendent of Abraham though Issac and Jacob/Israel. So from an ethnographic perspective, how you make any sense out of that depends on your point of view.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...rael_and_Judah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_Egypt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_age_collapse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion

judge

Are modern jews in any way related to biblical jews?

There is some evidence that many modern jews are the descendents of khazars (turkish people) and not biblical jews. Should these people have claim to palestine?

What about other converts. I recently moved from Bondi in Australia which has a large jewish population, but many jews there, particualrly more and more th young kids are pretty clearly not from the middle east. They have blue eyes and or blode hair.
Do they have right to Palestine as well?

braces_for_impact

While the question in the OP is historically interesting, what does it have to do with any people's claims to land?

"We were here first" is an awful argument to use when claiming real estate. Could you imagine how that would work if everyone used that argument? We'd all shift around for the next few thousand years until we all ended up back in Africa!

Anat

judge, converts into Judaism are considered adoptees. Their biological heritage doesn't matter, at least from a Jewish POV.

Other arguments are found in The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel
. They include historical presence (including as an independent entity), forced exile throughout which the hope to return was maintained, self-initiated beginning of return process - physical and cultural, international recognition, the Holocaust, Jewish participation in the struggle against the Nazis. Most of these points may lead to discussion that belongs in the political fora rather than BC&H.

Anduin

There is no legal basis to claim nationhood based on history. Should the United States give back its land to the Native American tribes because they were there first? Should Mexico be broken up and large parts of Mexico City be given to the descendants of the Aztec? Should all non-native Australians be driven out of their land and should it be given to the Aborigines?

Israel exists because it was created by the colonial powers at the end of the 2nd World War, just like many countries exist because of that historical quirk. It has no "historic" reason to exist any more than the Inca Empire has a reason to exist. It exists because of international law and custom, and because its existence has been recognised by the international community.

judge

Yes I understand. So why should someone who converts to the jewish religion have a claim to own part of Palestine?

So the OP asks who was there first? Certainly no jew alive today can prove that he is a descendent of the biblical jews, so no jew alive today can claim to have been there first.

simongc

This is probably right but there are a few hard line orthodox JeWs and Christian Right Wingers who are adamant that God gave the Jews a special promise ( a covenant i think it was) regarding the land in and around Israel.

I have never heard a debate on what the balance of the 6 Billion mortal souls are supposed to feel when faced with being somewhat disinherited by the Great Architect, or how the rest of world is supposed to work out their national borders without divine adjudication.

Also never here much about the Stern Gang being listed on th UN list of proscribed organisations .

Whilst we are all tracing back the origins of historic links you might like to trace Yasser Arrafat 's bloodline back as I suspect he would have a better claim than most of being a direct descendant of that messiah fellow, seeing that they both sandaled away their lives across the stony dunes.:devil: