Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 12-11-2006, 08:03 PM

This is quite interesting and I'm not sure what to make of it. It almost seems as though even "Mark" himself had read this perhaps, or something. And why does Josephus say that these crazy things happened? Are these rumors that he is passing on? (one has to suppose).

http://www.interhack.net/projects/li...jews/b6c5.html

Quote:

2. And now the Romans, judging that it was in vain to spare what was round about the holy house, burnt all those places, as also the remains of the cloisters and the gates, two excepted; the one on the east side, and the other on the south; both which, however, they burnt afterward. They also burnt down the treasury chambers, in which was an immense quantity of money, and an immense number of garments, and other precious goods there reposited; and, to speak all in a few words, there it was that the entire riches of the Jews were heaped up together, while the rich people had there built themselves chambers [to contain such furniture]. The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children, and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand. But before Caesar had determined any thing about these people, or given the commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his life. A false prophet (19) was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.

3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (23) began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

Mods, can you fix the spelling in the title

Yes

Toto · 12-11-2006, 09:59 PM

Hi Malachi - you are reinventing the wheel, it seems. Theodore Weeden has already noticed that parallel and written about it. THere is an audiotape of a talk he gave to a Westar seminar here, and there are some posts that you can search for on Crosstalk.

Quote:

Theodore J. Weeden, Sr.
Two Jesuses

Jesus of Jerusalem and Jesus of Nazareth

Did Mark use the story of the "passion and death" of Jesus, son of Ananias, reported by Josephus, to create his passion narrative? Scholars have long argued that Mark drew on a pre-Markan passion story. But, while some scholars have previously noted parallels between the stories in Mark and Josephus, Ted Weeden will argue that Mark actually created his stories of the Jewish and Roman trials using an oral form of the story of Jesus of Ananias. Furthermore, he contends that not only Mark, but Luke and John also borrowed elements of Josephus' story to enhance their passion narratives.

Peter Kirby · 12-11-2006, 10:06 PM

To add to what Toto said, I think the drawing of parallels between Jesus and Jesus goes back further than Ted Weeden.

--
Peter Kirby

Malachi151 · 12-12-2006, 03:27 AM

That may well be, but why all of this discussion of signs?

Also, it would seem to me that this discussion of "signs of impending doom" seems to start around 65 CE, and also, though Paul talks about a coming end of ages, he's not a doom sayer.

When does the discussion of a violent end of ages first appear? Could it be argued that this is a part of Hebrews, or is Mark really the first to talk about a violent end of ages?

Peter Kirby · 12-12-2006, 03:41 AM

Extra-Christian Jewish texts would probably be the first...but maybe Zoroastrian texts before them would be the first?

--
Peter Kirby

FreezBee · 12-12-2006, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Extra-Christian Jewish texts would probably be the first...but maybe Zoroastrian texts before them would be the first?

Some of the Qumran scrolls do mention a violent end of the age; but several OT texts also do hint at this.

The Book of Daniel was an important source for the early Christians, and it does mention that there will be war until the end.

- FreezBee

Malachi151 · 12-12-2006, 04:08 AM

Right, right, but what are the first *Christian* works that discuss a violent end of ages. Am I correct in saying that Paul doesn't discuss this? I don't seem to recall him talking about that. He talks about the end of ages, but not in a violent way.

What I'm trying to get at is, does this enter into the Christian message shortly prior and after the destruction of Judea? (as best we can tell?)

FreezBee · 12-12-2006, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Right, right, but what are the first *Christian* works that discuss a violent end of ages. Am I correct in saying that Paul doesn't discuss this? I don't seem to recall him talking about that. He talks about the end of ages, but not in a violent way.

What I'm trying to get at is, does this enter into the Christian message shortly prior and after the destruction of Judea? (as best we can tell?)

Ok, I see your point. Paul does not mention any violent end, not in sense of a war - he is addressing believers.

Does that mean that the Christians first adopted the idea of a violent end after the destruction of Jerusalem? Not necessarily - Paul wasn't a Judean, and maybe Judean Christians saw things different than Paul did?

- FreezBee

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

12-11-2006, 10:06 PM	#3
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	To add to what Toto said, I think the drawing of parallels between Jesus and Jesus goes back further than Ted Weeden. -- Peter Kirby

12-12-2006, 03:27 AM	#4
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	That may well be, but why all of this discussion of signs? Also, it would seem to me that this discussion of "signs of impending doom" seems to start around 65 CE, and also, though Paul talks about a coming end of ages, he's not a doom sayer. When does the discussion of a violent end of ages first appear? Could it be argued that this is a part of Hebrews, or is Mark really the first to talk about a violent end of ages?

12-12-2006, 03:41 AM	#5
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Extra-Christian Jewish texts would probably be the first...but maybe Zoroastrian texts before them would be the first? -- Peter Kirby

12-12-2006, 04:08 AM	#7
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Right, right, but what are the first Christian works that discuss a violent end of ages. Am I correct in saying that Paul doesn't discuss this? I don't seem to recall him talking about that. He talks about the end of ages, but not in a violent way. What I'm trying to get at is, does this enter into the Christian message shortly prior and after the destruction of Judea? (as best we can tell?)

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.