Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 04-20-2011, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

There was a story by Conan Doyle -- was it "Sir Nigel"? -- where the faking of relics for profit was depicted vividly.

It's worth bearing in mind that, in these frauds, Christians are nearly always the intended *victims*.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Indeed you are right. Separating the gullible from their money has been a cottage industry in the region since the 4th century.

Money, property, worldly assets ....

"At death, people shall have the right
to leave property to the Church."

321 CE (ie: just before Nicaea)
Codex Theodosianus 16.2.4

The whole thing is a 4th century scam.
The sooner we can expose it and move on the better.

vid · 04-22-2011, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

It's worth bearing in mind that, in these frauds, Christians are nearly always the intended *victims*.

However they themselves keep creating conditions which prompt these frauds.

Take for example the canon 7 of 2nd Council of Nicaea (7th ecumenical council):

Quote:

http://jbburnett.com/resources/canons/7can/7can07.html

Paul the divine Apostle said: “Some men’s sins are plainly evident, . . . whereas those of other men follow inferentially” (1 Tim. 5:24). Sins, therefore, being committed in advance, other sins follow them. Thus the impious heresy of accusers of the Christians was followed by other acts of impiety. For precisely as they removed the face in the venerable icons from the Church, they have also abandoned certain other customs which must be renewed, and in accordance with both the written and the unwritten law they must thus prevail. As to any venerable temples, therefore, that have been consecrated without holy relics of Martyrs, we decree that in them there shall be made a deposit of relics together with the usual prayer. Let anyone, then, that consecrates a temple without holy relics be deposed from office, on the ground that he has transgressed ecclesiastical traditions.

So I wonder about those faithful sincere Christians who wanted to consecrate new churches and didn't want to be deposed by the Church, where did they get actual relics of martyrs they needed?

mountainman · 05-09-2011, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

As bad as it was...it wasn't as bad as Jacobovici's frigging "Nails."

A Critique of Simcha Jacobovici’s Secrets of Christianity: Nails of the Cross - Robert XKV8R. Cargill, Ph.D.

Quote:

Simcha makes two bold claims to say the least: the first is that the lost nails of Jesus’ crucifixion have been recovered, and the second is an implicit assertion that the IAA covered it up. Unfortunately for Simcha, his theory has a problem, and its name is Legion, for they are many. Any one of these problems renders Simcha’s theory impossible, and their aggregate renders the theory preposterous.

spin · 05-09-2011, 01:01 PM

Quote:

It's worth bearing in mind that, in these frauds, Christians are nearly always the intended *victims*.

Martyrdom is so ennobling.

DCHindley · 05-09-2011, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

It's worth bearing in mind that, in these frauds, Christians are nearly always the intended *victims*.

However they themselves keep creating conditions which prompt these frauds.

Take for example the canon 7 of 2nd Council of Nicaea (7th ecumenical council):

Quote:

http://jbburnett.com/resources/canons/7can/7can07.html

Paul the divine Apostle said: “Some men’s sins are plainly evident, . . . whereas those of other men follow inferentially” (1 Tim. 5:24).

Sins, therefore, being committed in advance, other sins follow them. Thus the impious heresy of accusers of the Christians was followed by other acts of impiety.

For precisely as they removed the face in the venerable icons from the Church, they have also abandoned certain other customs which must be renewed, and in accordance with both the written and the unwritten law they must thus prevail.

As to any venerable temples, therefore, that have been consecrated without holy relics of Martyrs, we decree that in them there shall be made a deposit of relics together with the usual prayer. Let anyone, then, that consecrates a temple without holy relics be deposed from office, on the ground that he has transgressed ecclesiastical traditions.

So I wonder about those faithful sincere Christians who wanted to consecrate new churches and didn't want to be deposed by the Church, where did they get actual relics of martyrs they needed?

Are you sure that "venerable temples" means churches? I think these venerable temples are more akin to what we today call "shrines" dedicated to saints, only these would be dedicated to martyrs for the faith. The relics don't have to be Jesus' toenails or nails from the cross of Christ, but can be things like a martyr's staff, or a piece of his/her flesh baked golden brown by the fire, or the martyr's teeth, skull or, well, toenails.

DCH

Minimalist · 05-09-2011, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

As bad as it was...it wasn't as bad as Jacobovici's frigging "Nails."

A Critique of Simcha Jacobovici’s Secrets of Christianity: Nails of the Cross - Robert XKV8R. Cargill, Ph.D.

Quote:

Simcha makes two bold claims to say the least: the first is that the lost nails of Jesus’ crucifixion have been recovered, and the second is an implicit assertion that the IAA covered it up. Unfortunately for Simcha, his theory has a problem, and its name is Legion, for they are many. Any one of these problems renders Simcha’s theory impossible, and their aggregate renders the theory preposterous.

Cargill did a great job, there.

vid · 05-10-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Are you sure that "venerable temples" means churches? I think these venerable temples are more akin to what we today call "shrines" dedicated to saints, only these would be dedicated to martyrs for the faith. The relics don't have to be Jesus' toenails or nails from the cross of Christ, but can be things like a martyr's staff, or a piece of his/her flesh baked golden brown by the fire, or the martyr's teeth, skull or, well, toenails.

You very well might be right, but my point still stands. Orders like this one were prompting forging of relics.

Underseer · 05-10-2011, 10:54 AM

Unfortunately, the very nature of religious belief makes it inevitable that they will frequently fall prey to every imaginable kind of huxter. On this, they actually have my pity... to a degree.

andrewcriddle · 05-10-2011, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

It's worth bearing in mind that, in these frauds, Christians are nearly always the intended *victims*.

However they themselves keep creating conditions which prompt these frauds.

Take for example the canon 7 of 2nd Council of Nicaea (7th ecumenical council):

Quote:

http://jbburnett.com/resources/canons/7can/7can07.html

Paul the divine Apostle said: “Some men’s sins are plainly evident, . . . whereas those of other men follow inferentially” (1 Tim. 5:24).

Sins, therefore, being committed in advance, other sins follow them. Thus the impious heresy of accusers of the Christians was followed by other acts of impiety.

For precisely as they removed the face in the venerable icons from the Church, they have also abandoned certain other customs which must be renewed, and in accordance with both the written and the unwritten law they must thus prevail.

As to any venerable temples, therefore, that have been consecrated without holy relics of Martyrs, we decree that in them there shall be made a deposit of relics together with the usual prayer. Let anyone, then, that consecrates a temple without holy relics be deposed from office, on the ground that he has transgressed ecclesiastical traditions.

So I wonder about those faithful sincere Christians who wanted to consecrate new churches and didn't want to be deposed by the Church, where did they get actual relics of martyrs they needed?

Are you sure that "venerable temples" means churches? I think these venerable temples are more akin to what we today call "shrines" dedicated to saints, only these would be dedicated to martyrs for the faith. The relics don't have to be Jesus' toenails or nails from the cross of Christ, but can be things like a martyr's staff, or a piece of his/her flesh baked golden brown by the fire, or the martyr's teeth, skull or, well, toenails.

DCH

See Christian Altar

Quote:

No special formula for the consecration of altars was in use in the Roman Church before the eighth century. In substance, however, what we understand by consecration was practiced in the fourth century. This original form of consecration consisted in the solemn transfer of the relics of a martyr to the altar of a newly erected church The translation of the bodies of Sts. Gervasius and Protasius, made by St. Ambrose, is the first recorded example of the kind. (See AMBROSIAN BASILICA.) But such translations of the mortal remains of martyrs were at this time, and long afterwards, of rare occurrence. Relics, however, by which we must understand objects from a martyr's tomb (the brandea mentioned above), were regarded with only a less degree of respect than the bodies of the martyrs themselves, and served as it were to multiply the body of the saint. This reverence for objects associated with a martyr gave rise to the custom of entombing such relics beneath the altars of newly erected churches, until it ultimately became the rule not to dedicate a church without them.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 05-27-2011, 05:19 PM

05-27-2011, 05:19 PM	#20
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	More from Joe Zias

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05-10-2011, 10:54 AM	#18
Underseer Contributor Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburbs Posts: 39,172	Unfortunately, the very nature of religious belief makes it inevitable that they will frequently fall prey to every imaginable kind of huxter. On this, they actually have my pity... to a degree.

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