Donald_McRonald

(Sorry if it's already been asked....)

Break out those BDBs!

The verses, at least when I read them initially, seem to be saying two men shouldn't have sex. Old Testament Hebrew is well known for being inexact and/or pleonastic, so it could very well be a prohibition on two men having sex - and yet, it's qualified with the phrase translated here as "as with womankind." משכבי ×?שה is the original Hebrew.

My question is, why does it specifically qualify the sentences with משכבי ×?שה? The phrase does not occur in other verses. (eg, 18:7 uses "uncovering nakedness" when proscribing homosexual incest with one's father. 18:23 says men shouldn't lie with beasts and neither should women, but it never mentions the way one lies with another - leading to the question of whether lesbianism is permitted since the verses never tell women not to lie with women as with men, but that's another thread....)

Has it ever been postulated that this idea grew out of or reflects the idea associated with ancient Greek sexual dynamics that it's ok as long as you're not the woman? (Not that one culture influenced the other, just that they happened to follow the same train of thought.) My ancient Hebrew is rusty and I don't have my lexicon with me here (wouldn't want to lug a 5 lb book on the plane...), but could משכבי ×?שה be understood as a prohibition on "being the woman"? ("You shall not lie with a man as if you were the woman"; "Don't be somebody's 'bitch.'")

In laymen's terms, was there ever possibly a point in Israelite culture where homosexual sex was acceptable as long as you weren't the "catcher?" And is the death sentenced mandated in 20:13 a later, more restrictive response to that?

Anat

I don't know about the male gay sex question, but lesbian acts were simply not considered 'real sex' as there was no penetration. According to the posts of a certain lesbian Orthodox Jewish woman on a Jewish board, the first authoritive prohibitive stance against lesbian sex comes from Maimonides.