dongiovanni1976x

In his recent book, End of Faith, Sam Harris proposes that the communism of Stalin and Mao, in which millions died, can be equated to "little more than a political religion." He then suggests that the Holocaust was not an entirely secular phenomenon and says that, "Knowingly or not, the Nazis were agents of religion."

I was curious to hear peoples opinions on this subject. Whether you are familiar with the book or not...

Thx

dongiovanni1976x

Sorry, I accidentally placed this in Biblical Criticism & History, instead of general religious discussions. My apologies.

Spitfire

I know people like to imagine that Hitler was a God-fearing Catholic who was driven by religious zeal, but that's a bit simplistic. To make an understatement. He was born Catholic, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. He told people he was Catholic, but once again that must be seen in light of the fact that it was Hitler speaking then. Would you believe anything Hitler told you? He also told people he opposed war. And that if you are going to lie, you should tell a big lie. Basically, he told people whatever he thought they needed to hear in order to elicit their compliance.

The Concordat with the Catholic Church was an excellent tactical move on part of the Nazis. It allowed Hitler to dissolve the Catholic Center Party, one of his most formidable political opponents, without the outcry and resistance that Bismarck encountered when he instituted his "Kulturkampf" against the Catholic Church, as this time German Catholics thought they were safe. None of this was done out of any loyalty on part of Hitler towards the Catholic Church, however. He later violated the Concordat in just about every possible way and sought to eventually do away with Christianity, instituting a Reich Church to indoctrinate and eventually realign all German Christians, as they formed too large a majority to simply imprison and exterminate like the Jews.

Here are just a few of the things on the official agenda of the Reich Church:

- The National Reich Church of Germany categorically claims the exclusive right and the exclusive power to control all churches within the borders of the Reich; it declares these to be national churches.

- The National Reich Church is determined to exterminate irrevocably and by every means the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800.

- The National Reich Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany as well as the publication of Sunday papers, pamphlets, publications and books of a religious nature.

- The National Reich Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of Saints.

- On the altars there must be nothing but "Mein Kampf", which is to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book, and to the left of the altar a sword.

Otherwise, Hitler's beliefs, and those of most of his closest collaborators, were rooted deeply in the occult.

Amaleq13

Easily corrected.

dongiovanni1976x

I agree with what you said but to play devil's advocate and defend the author I think his intention was to demonstrate the common feature of Nazis and other religious people.

e.g.
"For every emotion that you are capable of feeling, there is surely a belief that could invoke it in a matter of moments. Consider for a moment the following proposition:

“Your daughter is being slowly tortured in an English jail.”

What is it that stands between you and the absolute panic that such a proposition would loose in the mind and body of a person who believed it? Perhaps you do not have a daughter, or you know her to be safely at home, or you believe that English jailors are renowned for their congeniality. Whatever the reason, the door to belief has not yet swung upon its hinges.

If your child comes to you in the middle of the night saying, “Mommy, there’s an elephant in the hall,” you might escort him back to bed toting an imaginary gun; if he had said, “Mommy, there’s a man in the hall,” you would probably be inclined to carry a real one.

When the members of the “Heaven’s Gate” cult failed to spot the spacecraft they knew must be trailing the comet Hale-Bopp, they returned the $4,000 telescope they had bought for this purpose, believing it to be defective."

So if all actions are contigent upon ones beliefs, and the National Socialist creed was anchored in unjustified and uncritical loyalty to the Fuher- just like supernatural (i.e. religious) beliefs which are rooted in blind adherence to unjustified belief- then can a valid case be made to say that the Nazis were "agents of religion"?

What is the difference between saying "God said it, I believe it and that settles it." and what Rudolf Hess said in a speech in June of 1934 where he asserted that, "the National Socialist of all of us is anchored in uncritical loyalty, in the surrender to the Fuher that does not ask for the why in individual cases, in the silent execution of his orders. We believe the Fuher is obeying a higher call to fashion German history. There can be no criticism of this belief."

Hence Harris' book title caling for the "End of Faith". (Faith being unjustified belief or blind adherence to any particular creed)

Berthold

I would say that this is too complex for a simple answer. Nazi attitude towards religion was far from monolithic (perhaps they thought this issue to be of minor importance); attitudes and actions of church hierarchs (within churches as well as between them) were not really unanimous either.

CanoeMan

My view is that Hitler was indeed a christian, but that doesn't mean that everything about the Reich was about christianity.

Sure, he might have lied about being christian just to fool the populace, but an even simpler explanation is that he was, as most other germans then, a christian. I mean, what points towards him having abandoned his religion?

Spitfire

Yes... I don't remember his name, but I know that one concentration camp worker, in "defense" of his actions after the war was over, said that he would have thrown his own wife and children into the furnace if Hitler had ordered it. :worried: I don't deny that such unflinching faith in Hitler was common among the Nazis. But, as necessary as I think faith is, I think some prudence is necessary in deciding what to put your faith in. I have faith in some things that are beyond my own limited ability to fully comprehend, but, if I were required to believe something that was totally contrary to reason or violated my conscience, I would then be under the moral obligation to call the object of my faith into question.

That is the dark side of willpower, I think, to willingly suspend or even completely suppress your own conscience however necessary in order to serve with still greater efficiency.

punk77

Thanks for the information about the Reich Church. I didn't know that such a body existed. I always thought that Hitler just co-opted the mainstream churches to his will.

If Hitler

' later violated the Concordat in just about every possible way and sought to eventually do away with Christianity'

why did the Catholic Church do so much to help with the escape of high level Nazis at the end/after the war. Surley God would have tipped them off by then as their actions show that they do not seem to have figured it out for themselves:wide:.

dongiovanni1976x

Bertrand Russell observed that, "The Spainards in Mexico and Peru used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out: by this means they secured these infants to heaven." (Why I am not a Christian p.35)

If you truly believe in the remission of sins in this manner and likewise believe that one's time on earth is just a drop in the bucket compared to the time in eternity that these Indian's would likely spend in Hell, it doesn't seem to run contrary to ones conscience to be happy bashing babies heads against the stones as it says in Psalms 137:9.

Mr. Harris is not arguing that anyone should know and understand something "fully" but just that all beliefs should be open to ask the question "Why" and should have rational objective reasons to support maintaining them that others may question.

In Hebrews 11:1 faith is defined as, "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." In other words, belief without evidence.

To see how this kind of unchecked irrationality can affect society all one needs to do is look at the muslim sponsored executions, xtian abortion clinic bombers, or stalkers who are in love with someone who does not love them back.

Take this example from Harris' book, he asks us to suppose that "I feel a certain, rather thrilling conviction that Nicole Kidman is in love with me. As we have never met, my feeling is my only evidence of her infatuation. I reason thus: my feelings suggest that Nicole and I must have a special, even metaphysical, connection- otehrwise, how could I have this feeling in the first place? I decide to set up camp outside her house to make the necessary introductions; clearly this sort of faith is a tricky business." (Harris p.64)

I do not think your conscience can be violated because I am only talking about freely held beliefs...not ones that "require" you to believe...only ones that you choose to believe yourself. Of course some Nazis would not fit this mold...in fact a large majority were likely just going along with the flow. But faithful adherents like Rudolf Hess who put blind, unquestioning faith in something seem to be doing the same thing as devout Muslim, Christian, or Jew.