JoeWallack

Joseph:
Generally, claims of Jesus fulfilling prophecies from the Jewish Bible have long been an important part of Christian theology and evangelistic effort. It would Surprise most people though, including Skeptics, to know that what was likely the first Gospel, “Mark�, has relatively few explicit claims of Jesus fulfilling prophecy from the Jewish Bible. “Mark� does also include implications of Jesus fulfilling prophecies from the Jewish Bible especially through the use of phrases found in the Jewish Bible which are used in the supposed “Markan� narrative but let’s limit our study for now to explicit claims.

Following are the only explicit claims of Jesus fulfilling prophecies from the Jewish Bible in “Mark� that I can find:

1)
1: (NRSV)
2 “As it is written in the prophet Isaiah,
‘See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way;
3 the voice of one crying out in the wilderness:
“Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,�’
4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5And people from the whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him, and were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. 6Now John was clothed with camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7He proclaimed, ‘The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to stoop down and untie the thong of his sandals. 8I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.’�


The first part of the claimed quote from Isaiah appears to refer to:

Malachi 3: (NRSV)

“See, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me,�

Malachi 4 identifies this messenger as Elijah. So “Mark� appears to be presenting an unexpected, ironic, prophecy fulfillment here. Malachi’s prophecy of a messenger preparing “The Way� was fulfilled by John the Baptist but unexpected and ironic as based on Malachi 4 Elijah was supposed to be the messenger.

Let’s take a look at Webster’s definition of “ironic�:
“2: incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: "the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated"�

Note that “ironic� contains an element of surprise as
to the how and what between expectation and result.

The second part of the claimed quote from Isaiah appears to refer to:
Isaiah 40: (NSRV)

1 “Comfort, O comfort my people,
says your God.
2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
and cry to her
that she has served her term,
that her penalty is paid,
that she has received from the LORD’s hand
double for all her sins.
3 A voice cries out:
‘In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD,
make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be lifted up,
and every mountain and hill be made low;
the uneven ground shall become level,
and the rough places a plain.
5 Then the glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
and all people shall see it together,
for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.’
6 A voice says, ‘Cry out!’
And I said, ‘What shall I cry?’
All people are grass,
their constancy is like the flower of the field.
7 The grass withers, the flower fades,
when the breath of the LORD blows upon it;
surely the people are grass.
8 The grass withers, the flower fades;
but the word of our God will stand for ever.
9 Get you up to a high mountain,
O Zion, herald of good tidings;*
lift up your voice with strength,
O Jerusalem, herald of good tidings,*
lift it up, do not fear;
say to the cities of Judah,
‘Here is your God!’
10 See, the Lord GOD comes with might,
and his arm rules for him;
his reward is with him,
and his recompense before him.
11 He will feed his flock like a shepherd;
he will gather the lambs in his arms,
and carry them in his bosom,
and gently lead the mother sheep.�

The context of Isaiah here identifies the audience as the Israel of Isaiah’s time and the messenger as Isaiah (surprise). So again “Mark� appears to be presenting an unexpected, ironic, prophecy fulfillment here. Isaiah’s prophecy of the voice of someone crying out to prepare “The Way� was fulfilled by John the Baptist but unexpected and ironic as based on Isaiah 40 Isaiah was supposed to be the voice.

For people who believed in the coming of a Messiah presumably they would believe that the actual coming would be the most important event in the history of the world. In “Mark’s� prophecy claim from the Jewish Bible as to the messenger who would initially identify the Messiah to the world, “Mark� refers to a passage that literally and in a straight forward manner identifies Elijah as the messenger. “The Jews� would therefore have a reasonable expectation that anyone not announced by Elijah would not be the Messiah.

2)
4: (NRSV)
10 “When he was alone, those who were around him along with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11And he said to them, ‘To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; 12in order that
“they may indeed look, but not perceive,
and may indeed listen, but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.�’

The quote refers to Isaiah 6: (NRSV)

1 “In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lofty; and the hem of his robe filled the temple. 2Seraphs were in attendance above him; each had six wings: with two they covered their faces, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. 3And one called to another and said:
‘Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory.’
4 The pivots* on the thresholds shook at the voices of those who called, and the house filled with smoke. 5And I said: ‘Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!’
6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me, holding a live coal that had been taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. 7The seraph* touched my mouth with it and said: ‘Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.’ 8Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?’ And I said, ‘Here am I; send me!’ 9And he said, ‘Go and say to this people:
“Keep listening, but do not comprehend;
keep looking, but do not understand.�
10 Make the mind of this people dull,
and stop their ears,
and shut their eyes,
so that they may not look with their eyes,
and listen with their ears,
and comprehend with their minds,
and turn and be healed.’
11Then I said, ‘How long, O Lord?’ And he said:
‘Until cities lie waste
without inhabitant,
and houses without people,
and the land is utterly desolate;
12 until the LORD sends everyone far away,
and vast is the emptiness in the midst of the land.
13 Even if a tenth part remains in it,
it will be burned again,
like a terebinth or an oak
whose stump remains standing
when it is felled.’*
The holy seed is its stump.�

The context of Isaiah here again identifies the audience as the Israel of Isaiah’s time and the messenger as Isaiah (surprise). Yet again “Mark� appears to be presenting an unexpected, ironic, prophecy fulfillment here. Isaiah’s prophecy of someone giving instructions designed to confuse the people was fulfilled by Jesus but unexpected and ironic as based on Isaiah 6
as Isaiah was supposed to be the someone. Using this Isaiah quote to claim prophecy fulfillment is especially unexpected and ironic as Isaiah is full of straightforward, non-parable instructions and the quote used by “Mark� may be the only such one of its Type in Isaiah.

3)
9: (NRSV)
9 “As they were coming down the mountain, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen, until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10So they kept the matter to themselves, questioning what this rising from the dead could mean. 11Then they asked him, ‘Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ 12He said to them, ‘Elijah is indeed coming first to restore all things. How then is it written about the Son of Man, that he is to go through many sufferings and be treated with contempt? 13But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written about him.’�

There’s nothing explicit about the treatment of Elijah upon his return in the Jewish Bible and if “Mark� instead was referring to Elijah’s treatment during his first visit it was Elijah who did what he pleased to those opposed to him. So claiming that John the Baptist’s mistreatment fulfilled prophecy from the Jewish Bible description of Elijah comes as something of a surprise.

The claimed prophecy fulfillment of John the Baptist’s mistreatment is especially ironic as the natural implication of a messenger announcing the Messiah is that the messenger would be well treated.

4)
12: (NRSV)
10 “Have you not read this scripture:
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;*
11this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is amazing in our eyes�?’
12 When they realized that he had told this parable against them, they wanted to arrest him, but they feared the crowd. So they left him and
went away.�

The quote is from Psalm 118: (NRSV)
1� O give thanks to the LORD, for he is good;
his steadfast love endures for ever!
2 Let Israel say,
‘His steadfast love endures for ever.’
3 Let the house of Aaron say,
‘His steadfast love endures for ever.’
4 Let those who fear the LORD say,
‘His steadfast love endures for ever.’
5 Out of my distress I called on the LORD;
the LORD answered me and set me in a broad place.
6 With the LORD on my side I do not fear.
What can mortals do to me?
7 The LORD is on my side to help me;
I shall look in triumph on those who hate me.
8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to put confidence in mortals.
9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to put confidence in princes.
10 All nations surrounded me;
in the name of the LORD I cut them off!
11 They surrounded me, surrounded me on every side;
in the name of the LORD I cut them off!
12 They surrounded me like bees;
they blazed* like a fire of thorns;
in the name of the LORD I cut them off!
13 I was pushed hard,* so that I was falling,
but the LORD helped me.
14 The LORD is my strength and my might;
he has become my salvation.
15 There are glad songs of victory in the tents of the righteous:
‘The right hand of the LORD does valiantly;
16 the right hand of the LORD is exalted;
the right hand of the LORD does valiantly.’
17 I shall not die, but I shall live,
and recount the deeds of the LORD.
18 The LORD has punished me severely,
but he did not give me over to death.
19 Open to me the gates of righteousness,
that I may enter through them
and give thanks to the LORD.
20 This is the gate of the LORD;
the righteous shall enter through it.
21 I thank you that you have answered me
and have become my salvation.
22 The stone that the builders rejected
has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the LORD’s doing;
it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day that the LORD has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it.*
25 Save us, we beseech you, O LORD!
O LORD, we beseech you, give us success!
26 Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the LORD.*
We bless you from the house of the LORD.
27 The LORD is God,
and he has given us light.
Bind the festal procession with branches,
up to the horns of the altar.*
28 You are my God, and I will give thanks to you;
you are my God, I will extol you.
29 O give thanks to the LORD, for he is good,
for his steadfast love endures for ever.�

The context of the Psalm identifies the subject that accepts the cornerstone as Israel and the subject that rejects the cornerstone as Not Israel. Once again “Mark� appears to be presenting an unexpected, ironic, prophecy fulfillment here. The Psalm’s prophecy of Israel accepting what was rejected by Not Israel being fulfilled by the Jewish leaders rejecting Jesus is unexpected and ironic as based on the Psalm Israel was supposed to do the accepting.

This claimed prophecy fulfillment has the maximum twist as the good guys based on the Jewish Bible are transformed into the bad guys by “Mark’s� interpretation.

5)
14: (NRSV)
20 He said to them, ‘It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the bowl with me. 21For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born.’

There does not appear to be any such prophecy in the Jewish Bible of the Messiah going like this (which may explain the use of “as it is written�). All you can do is use the previous prophecy claim of Israel rejecting the cornerstone. If that claim was unexpected and ironic then this one is too.

6)
14: (NRSV)
26 “When they had sung the hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives. 27And Jesus said to them, ‘You will all become deserters; for it is written,
“I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.�

The quote is from Zechariah 13: (NRSV)

7 ‘Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,’
says the LORD of hosts.
Strike the shepherd, that the sheep may be scattered;
I will turn my hand against the little ones.
8In the whole land, says the LORD,
two-thirds shall be cut off and perish,
and one-third shall be left alive.
9And I will put this third into the fire,
refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call on my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’�

The context of Zechariah identifies the subject being scattered as the people of Israel. Another unexpected, ironic, prophecy fulfillment here. Zechariah’s prophecy of the people of Israel being scattered as fulfilled by the disciples being scattered is unexpected and ironic as based on Zechariah Israel was supposed to be the Scatteree and not the Scatteror.

The height of irony as those closest to and best instructed by Jesus are supposedly prophesied to desert him and by implication those not close to Jesus or instructed by him are prophesied to follow him.

7)
14: (NRSV)
48 “Then Jesus said to them, ‘Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest me as though I were a bandit? 49Day after day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not arrest me. But let the scriptures be fulfilled.’ 50All of them deserted him and fled.�

Apparently intended to refer to the previous unexpected and ironic prophecy fulfillment claim.

Here’s a summary of the Ironic components of “Mark’s� claimed prophecy fulfillment from the Tanakh:

1) The messenger of the Messiah was an unexpected person.

2) The claimed prophecies from the Jewish Bible are out of context so the fulfillments claimed by “Mark� would be unexpected by someone familiar with the Jewish Bible.

3) To support Jesus’ use of parables “Mark� uses probably the only quote (out of context) available in the entire Jewish Bible while ignoring hundreds of quotes contradicting his prophecy claim.

4) The messenger of the Messiah would be mistreated when a natural expectation would be that such messenger would be well treated.

5) That “The Jews� would reject the cornerstone when the prophecy was that “The Jews� would be the ones to accept the cornerstone.

6) That the disciples of the Messiah would all abandon the Messiah.

Compare the above to literal, straightforward, no tricks claimed Jewish Bible prophecy fulfillment by Jesus according to “Mark� not involving irony. Is there a single one? Someone, anyone, Buehder?

This lack by "Mark" of any straightforward prophecy fulfillment by Jesus from the Jewish Bible may have been intentional based on the following Markan verse:

8: (NRSV)
11 "The Pharisees came and began to argue with him, asking him for a sign from heaven, to test him. 12And he sighed deeply in his spirit and said, ‘Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to this generation.’ 13 And he left them, and getting into the boat again, he went across to the other side."

There wasn't any straightforward prophecy fulfillment by Jesus because there wasn't supposed to be any type of Sign identifying Jesus as the Messiah to his generation.


Joseph

DramaQ

It's been suggested that AMark used Paul directly as a source. Could this be an example of this?

Vork?

dq

neilgodfrey

This use of prophecy (something discernable only to the initiated, an ironic mystery to be explained) serves the purpose of explaining to Mark's audience why Jesus, though the Messiah, went unrecognized at the time of his appearance. As you point out, Mark is saying that there was no sign at the time of his appearance to indicate Jesus was the Messiah, -- thus Mark is explaining to his readers how it is that the story they are hearing is only being heard for the first time in their generation, by the inner group.

It fits with the ending that points out that no-one at the time even heard of the empty tomb.

It all fits the construct that Christianity began with a doctrinal notion of Christ who descended from heaven some time in the past but was unrecognized so he could suffer for some theological reason. For an author to begin to flesh out this doctrinal moment with a story he needs to wrap it in reasons the Christ was unrecognized at the time and why the story had not been generally known all along.

Vorkosigan

Yes, that's what I think. When Mark uses the non-OT "as it written" he means Paul. But I am resigned to being unable to prove this.

Vorkosigan

Amaleq13

I think you are extremely unlikely to prove it for this particular example since I don't believe Paul ever refers to Jesus with the "Son of Man" title.

Vivisector

My recollection is that "as it is written" is a formulaic phrase (I know, it's only one word in Greek) used to denote scripture. For AMk to have used this phrase in connection with Paul's writings would have indicated that AMk considered Paul's writings on par with other (e.g., HB) scripture, making him the first - by perhaps a century or more - person we know to have considered Paul's writings as scripture.

Have I misunderstood something?

Cheers,

V.

Vorkosigan

Nope. But then I think Mark is a second century document, probably written after 110. So the time element is not an issue for me.


Vorkosigan

JoeWallack

Don't get strung up,
By The Way I Look.
Don't Judge a Messiah,
By his Cover.
I'm not, much of a Son of Man,
By the "Light" of day.
But by night,
I'm one hell of a love (one another).
I'm Just A Sweet Transfigurite,
From TransJordan, Transylvania


neilgodfree:
"This use of prophecy (something discernable only to the initiated, an ironic mystery to be explained) serves the purpose of explaining to Mark's audience why Jesus, though the Messiah, went unrecognized at the time of his appearance. As you point out, Mark is saying that there was no sign at the time of his appearance to indicate Jesus was the Messiah, -- thus Mark is explaining to his readers how it is that the story they are hearing is only being heard for the first time in their generation, by the inner group.
It fits with the ending that points out that no-one at the time even heard of the empty tomb.
It all fits the construct that Christianity began with a doctrinal notion of Christ who descended from heaven some time in the past but was unrecognized so he could suffer for some theological reason. For an author to begin to flesh out this doctrinal moment with a story he needs to wrap it in reasons the Christ was unrecognized at the time and why the story had not been generally known all along."


JW:
In the words of that great 20th century philosopher, Kramer, (while pointing finger in air) "Uh, Bingo!". Nice summary Neil.

I will now initiate you into The Secret of "Mark's" "Messianic Secret" theme. The Theme involves Three Components (Count them, Three):

1) Self-identification as Messiah.

2) Identification by Others that you are Messiah and

5)

John Cleese: 3) sir, 3)

Riight! and

3) Sign from Heaven that you are Messiah.

While presenting his Messianic Secret theme (Ironic by itself) "Mark" generally:

1) Has Jesus refuse to Identify hisself as Messiah.

2) Has Jesus command Others not to identify hisself as Messiah.

3) And has Jesus explicitly state that there would be no Sign from Heaven for his audience identifying hisself as Messiah.

Now let's take a look at the Ironic and Sophisticated Literay skill of "Mark" which Ironically is probably the best evidence that there is anything Divine about the Christian Bible. "Mark" likes to give One Counter-example to his major themes in Order to Define. The Counter-example for the Messianic Secret theme is:

13: (NIV)
5 "Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
9 "You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time."

Bold emphasis is mine saith the Lord of The Secret. Note the Contrast here with Jesus' Messianic Secret which was prophesied according to my opening thread:

1) False Messiahs will Identify themselves as Messiah.

2) False Messiahs will command Others to identify themselves as Messiah.

3) False Messiahs will give Signs from Heaven for their audience identifying themselves as Messiah.

So in summary, according to "Mark", the Real Messiah will not Identify himself as Messiah, will not have others identify himself as Messiah and will not have a Sign from Heaven identifying himself as Messiah while a False Messiah will Identify himself as Messiah, will have others identify himself as Messiah and will have a Sign from Heaven identifying himself as Messiah. Let's pause for a count of Five, er, Three and let the Irony sink in...The Real Messiah can be Identified by:

1) Not Claiming to be The Messiah.

2) Not having Others claim he is The Messiah.

3) Not claiming support for his being the Messiah with a Sign from Heaven.

While a False Messiah can be identified by:

1) Claiming to be The Messiah.

2) Having Others claim he is The Messiah.

3) Claiming support for his being the Messiah with a Sign from Heaven.

As History this is Comical. As Literature though, it's Entertainment. (I won't even get into the related issue, since "Mark's" theme is that you can Identify a False Messiah by the claim that he is a Real Messiah, than since 'Mark" claims that Jesus is a Real Messiah does that mean that Jesus was a False Messiah?)

In brilliant Markan style, 'Mark" even gives the illustration, so to speak, of what would happen if a Real Messiah violated the Messianic Secret theme:

8: (NIV)
27 And Jesus went on with His disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way He asked His disciples, Who do people say that I am?
28 And they answered [Him], John the Baptist; and others [say], Elijah; but others, one of the prophets.
29 And He asked them, But who do you yourselves say that I am? Peter replied to Him, You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
30 And He charged them sharply to tell no one about Him.
31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must of necessity suffer many things and be tested and disapproved and rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be put to death, and after three days rise again [[l]from death].
32 And He said this freely (frankly, plainly, and explicitly, making it unmistakable). And Peter took Him [m]by the hand and led Him aside and then [facing Him] began to rebuke Him.
33 But turning around [His back to Peter] and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, Get behind Me, Satan! For you do not have a mind [n]intent on promoting what God wills, but what pleases men [you are not on God's side, but that of men].
34 And Jesus called [to Him] the throng with His disciples and said to them, If anyone intends to come after Me, let him deny himself [forget, ignore, disown, and [o]lose sight of himself and his own interests] and take up his cross, and [[p]joining Me as a disciple and siding with My party] follow [q]with Me [continually, cleaving steadfastly to Me].
35 For whoever wants to save his [[r]higher, spiritual, eternal] life, will lose it [the [s]lower, natural, temporal life [t]which is lived only on earth]; and whoever gives up his life [which is lived only on earth] for My sake and the Gospel's will save it [his [u]higher, spiritual life [v]in the eternal kingdom of God].
36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life [[w]in the eternal kingdom of God]?
37 For what can a man give as an exchange ([x]a compensation, a ransom, in return) for his [blessed] life [[y]in the eternal kingdom of God]?
38 For whoever [z]is ashamed [here and now] of Me and My words in this adulterous (unfaithful) and [preeminently] sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when He comes in the glory (splendor and majesty) of His Father with the holy angels.
9:
1 And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them.
3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them.
4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
5 Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."
6 (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)
7 Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!"
8 Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus.
9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what "rising from the dead" meant.
11 And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12 Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected? 13But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

Bold emphasis mine saith the Lord. In "The Transfiguration" story, which is The Heart of "Mark's" Gospel (Let The Reader Understand), "Mark" explains what happens when the Messiah Identifies himself as Messiah, has Others identify him as Messiah and has a Sign from Heaven identifying him as Messiah as illustrated here by:

1) Through question and answer Jesus communicates to Peter, the closest and best instructed member of Jesus' audience, that Jesus is the Messiah.

2) Has God identify to Peter (and God knows this should be a good enough Witness for anyone) that Jesus is Messiah.

3) Has the Transfiguration Sign, with Guest appearances by Moses and Elijah, from Heaven identifying Jesus as Messiah.

Absolutely Nothing. According to "Mark", when the Real Messiah Identifies himself, is identified by Others and is Identifed by a Sign from heaven, Nothing happens. There is no permanent effect. Why? To fulfill Scripture, of course.

As you learned in your path to becoming a born-again Atheist Neil, you can best Understand what an Individual author meant, by reading his story by itself. And reading "Mark" by itself demonstrates that Peter, Jesus' supposed El-#1 Disciple, Failed Jesus and never became an Apostle as opposed to the dishonest Resurrection of Peter's reputation by "Matthew" and "Luke" who rehabilitate Peter's Failure to Follow Jesus into "DiffiCulty" in Following Jesus which is "cured" by the Resurrection. "Mark's" Peter is an example of Failure while "Matthew" and "Luke's Peter is Transfigured into an example of Success.



Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Errors...yguid=68161660

http://hometown.aol.com/abdulreis/myhomepage/index.html