Pilate

In the name of Freedom of Speech, and fairness in discussion, let this posting be visible, and let anyone who has evidence to the contrary step up and present it.

Josephus wrote:
“Otherwise he was an excellent orator, and thoroughly acquainted with the Greek tongue, as well as with his own country or Roman language.� Josephus, Antiquities, book 19, chapter 2, par. 5, (208). Just because Josephus wrote "the roman language" does not mean that they spoke Roman.
Likewise, just because Josephus wrote he spoke the language of the Hebrews does not mean that the Hebrews spoke Hebrew.
Here is something else:
Here is what Whiston (the translator of Josephus) wrote in a footnote below Josephus’ text: “Had Josephus written even his first edition of these books of the War in pure Hebrew, or had the Jews then used the pure Hebrew at Jerusalem, the Hebrew word for a son is so like that for a stone, ben and eben, that such a correction might have been more easily admitted. But Josephus wrote his former edition for the use of the Jews beyond Euphrates, and so in the Chaldee language, as he did this second edition in the Greek language; and bar was the Chaldee word for son, instead of the Hebrew ben, and was used, not only in Chaldea, etc., but in Judea also, as the New Testament informs us: Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, Book 5, Chap. 6, par. 3, (272).
Josephus, F., & Whiston, W. (1996, c1987). The works of Josephus : Complete and unabridged. Includes index. Peabody: Hendrickson.
Matthew's gospel "according to the Hebrews" was written for the Jewish Christians, in the language they used: Aramaic (not Hebrew).
Saint Jerome wrote, “…. I am now speaking of the New Testament. This was undoubtedly composed in Greek, with the exception of the work of Matthew the Apostle, who was the first to commit to writing the Gospel of Christ, and who published his work in Judaea in Hebrew characters."
Saint Jerome mentions that this gospel was written in Aramaic: “In the Gospel according to the Hebrews, which is written in the Chaldee {Aramaic} and Syrian language {Aramaic}, but in Hebrew characters, and is used by the Nazarenes to this day (I mean the Gospel according to the Apostles, or, as is generally maintained, the Gospel according to Matthew, a copy of which is in the library at Caesarea), we find …� He cautioned “but in Hebrew Characters�: not in Chaldee letters. But the language was Aramaic.
I repeat: the language of the Americans is not American, its English.
The language of the Canadians is not Canadian, its English and French.
Don't confuse the name Hebrews with the Hebrew language.
The language of the Hebrews (this is the name the Greeks used to refer to the Israelites of the Hellenistic era) was not Hebrew. It was Aramaic also called Chaldee. (Don't take my word. I am not an expert. Check your dictionary for the word Chaldee.)
Consider this, along with all the evidence (actual quotations from ancient writers) I presented in previous postings, and if you want more evidence I will give you more.

Adora

And what exactly is this evidence for?

Toto

The question was raised on another thread as to whether the Jews in the first century spoke Hebrew or Aramaic.

You know what they say - a person who speaks two languages is bilingual. A person who speaks one language is an American.

spin

He's taken his post out of its original context in another thread to make it more visible, thinking it worthy of note. He was sort of arguing that Aramaic was the major language in Judea from the return from exile.

Better question though: where's the evidence?

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I wrote a response to the OP before it got the exaggerated colour formatting and placed in a thread of its own, but decided there was no point in posting it. Andy has shown himself to be clueless on the material he is trying to deal with and not able to make any steps to get a clue. But due to his desire to be seen to be read:

Back to Andy's reposting:

:thumbs:

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I have not argued for Hebrew being the exclusive language of Jews in 1st c. CE Judea, though I have argued that there isn't a shred of evidence for Andy's earlier outlandish claim that Aramaic was spoken by Jews in Judea since the return from exile. Early in this -- for want of better words -- discussion, I argued that one cannot assume Jesus lived, so one cannot assume what language he might have spoken. There is not enough reason from the gospel material to decide and the few magic Aramaic words in the gospels are no indication of anything useful, for if one were to write something set in Italy they might mention the odd pizza or pasta in the local piazza.

Now please, Andy, learn the ropes or accept that you won't get responded to in the future.


spin

gregor

Pardon my laziness and the slightly off-topic tangent, but was the vaguely referenced "gospel according to the Hebrews" determined not to be our Matthew based on Jerome's references to its contents?

kiwimac

If Jesus was a Galileean of the 1st C. Then it is likely he spoke Aramaic and Greek (given that the towns of the Decapolis were quite near).

Kiwimac

spin

It is reasonable that if Jesus existed and he was from Galilee, he would have spoken either Aramaic or Greek. I say "either... or" because in those days the range of people who had the opportunity of learning anything outside their menial lives was exceptionally limited. There was no education system, no reason to learn a second language unless you were say a merchant who dealt with both languages. Ben Sira describes what ordinary people's lives were like and what their opportunities were (Sirach 38:24-34). There's not much scope in that picture of having much more than a rudimentary knowledge of one's own language.


spin

TedM

True, but what significance if any do you give to Paul's use of Aramaic with "Abba, Abba" and "Maranatha"?

ted

spin

What do you think about Paul writing to a Greek group and using the word "maranatha"? (And it's thrown in there straight after the word "anathema". Great context.) "Abba" appears three times in the christian testament, each time with a translation, but would one be surprised that someone thought "abba" would be a good word to put in?


spin

TedM

Rather than assume it is comparable to your 'piazza' example, you are assuming later interpolations apparantly to make a very indirect reference to the presumed language of Jesus??