chimaira

Révélations 3 : 12 is new name of Jésus,
Baha'u'llah.

lpetrich

I checked on Rev 3:12, and there is NO explicit name mentioned.

Toto

Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name

Or was this a reference to the Revelations of Baha'u'llah?

Ted Hoffman

So claim the Bahais. My brother is one of them.

lpetrich

That seems like an impossibly big jump of inference. It makes me glad that I'm an agnostic/atheist/freethinker.

DamienVryce

I'm surprised that this passage is used here alone. In my experience Baha'is only give this reference when asked "So why didn't Jesus come back?"

One can make a case for Baha'u'llah being the "Return of Christ," that I believe is as strong as the case for Jesus as the Son of God. I spent about a year and a half developing such an argument, and I barely referenced this passage. I agree with the other infidels that this is indeed a leap of inference, and I certainl wouldn't expect it to be convincing to many (if any) people.

If you are interested in the conversation between Christians and Baha'is, I'd suggest the books by Michael Sours, they're a good introduction to Baha'i/Christian apologetics. I have great respect for him and his work. However, you may find this reference more explicitly in Mr. Sear's, Thief in the Night. In my experience, he also makes many inferential leaps like this, while many people have been converted by his work, I'd say that its primary value is that of reinforcing the belief of those who already believe.

shunyadragon

The links of prophecy are definitely not always exact. If they were there would not be so much debate. Given language differences and time there are obviously many interpretations of prophecy.

The best arguements for the fullfilment of prophecy by the Baha'i Faith are two: (1) The corraboration independently of people from many different religions and beliefs world wide that the time of fullfilment was between 1844 and 1863. This occured worldwide and involved Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, Shintoists, Native American religions and others.

(2) The events and radical changes in the world at that time and to the present day reflect the teachings and beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. The prophecies of the founders have unfolded well in the past 170 or so years.

The following are just a few of the extraudinary examples that cannot be easily explained away by coincedence.

The first telegraph message sent saying 'What God hath wraught.' was sent within 24 hours of the first declaration of the Bab 'Gate' in Persia beginning the Baha'i Faith and the New Age.

The quote in the Seven Valleys and Four Valleys describing the theory of relativity and the basis for modern science. 'If you split an atom you will release a sun.'

The belief in the relative nature of truth that is replacing older Neutonian beliefs and archeac dogma of individual religions was revealed in Baha'i scripture. The evolving nature of relative knowledge and the harmony of science and religion are important hallmark beliefs of te Baha'i Faith.

The first world conference on slavery and women's rights took place in 1843 and 1844.

The first translations of eastern scripture and the first printing of many scriptures took place beginning in 1844. This is an important step in the revealing of all religions worldwide, which is part of prophecies in different religions.

The volume of publication of books of all kinds increases rapidely after 1844.

The surge in the number of inventions and discoveries goes geometric after 1844.

The organization and structure of the World Court and the United Nations was greatly influenced by the proposals presented by the Baha'is.

The loose sectarian World Order or Confederation would come into being before or around the year 2000. This is a vague prophecy in the Baha'i Faith, but it became reality with the collapse of the Eastern block and the end of hostilities between the major world powers. The rise of organizations like the WTO and other world embrassing organizations that provide standards accepted by virtually all nations for everything from communications to safety and realizing the emperitive nature of the common interests of humanity. It has just begun but this the beginning of a form of world confederation proposed by Baha'u'llah and an uneasy lesser peace that will no longer see world wars.

The reality is that this is not an end to all conflicts and the process is an evolving one. The Lord will not come out of the sky on a cloud and zap all evil doers.

Go with the flow the river knows

Frank
Shenyang, China

DamienVryce

I’d like to respond to a couple of the statements made here, shunyadragon, I’d like to welcome you to II, and I hope that you benefit from your stay here. I still have great respect for many of the Baha’is that I’ve known, despite no longer professing the faith myself, and I hope that I’m able to present these comments in the spirit of inquiry and search.
I think this really comes to the crux of the matter. I certainly understand how Baha'is draw comfort from the various prophecies (or series of events) that you list here; however, many are so vague that interpretations easily stretch to fit the prophecy. As a result, I must look at proof of veracity based on these prophetic claims somewhat skeptically.

Here, I suppose is a good example, justifiable skepticism. In reference to Baha’u’llah’s discussion with regards to nuclear energy, Both the Seven Valley’s and the Four Valley’s are highly mystical writings. To point to a scientific insight within such writing is I believe a bit far fetched. Too many of the prophecies of the Bab, Baha’u’llah, or ‘Abdu’l-Baha are either extremely vague and mystical, or sufficiently within the power of the person fulfilling the prophecy to influence its fulfillment.

I think this notion of progressive revelation as it pertains to the Baha’i Faith is at once its greatest strength and greatest weakness. As attractive as it is to simply say that all faiths complement each other, and lead to knowledge of God, I feel there are legitimate differences between the major religions that cannot be swept away so easily.

Perhaps another reason that prophecies like this are most useful to those who already believe is illustrated below. First, even if events happen at the same time, this does not necessarily imply that they are causally related. Its one thing to say that discovery increased dramatically at a given time, its more difficult to say that as a result of the declaration of the Bab, these discoveries happened.
Second, I’m not nearly as convinced that there is such a clear trend pre-1844 and post-1844. I’m what kind of metrics would be used to sufficiently document this claim. I’ve seen numbers of patents as one such metric, but as I remember the patent data, there is no clear trend revolving around this time frame. In essence this remains an essentially unsupported assertion.

And I guess, I’ll wrap things up with a couple thoughts on this statement. Its not clear to me that any form of lesser peace has been instituted. Wars still ravage several parts of Africa and South America, and do not show signs of abating. Yet, you do qualify “world wars,� and I’ve paused to think on the implications of this qualification. On the one hand, it would likely allow these wars just mentioned, but what of the Second Persian Gulf War portrayed by the United States as a larger “War on Terror.� Here is a war being fought in a variety of different countries against an enemy beyond traditional national boundaries with a proven global reach. And then there are the troops being used in the fighting. While the US has supplied most of the troops and material, several other countries have contributed to the Iraqi war or the larger war on terror. I think clearly “global wars� are still being waged, and I’d suspect that the distinction between that term and “world wars� in this context is largely meaningless. However, I haven’t considered the larger implications on this question, and I will certainly do so.

chimaira

thank you very much to inform me on this subject, in fact I am not bahai but I discuss with bahais and I does not know too their religion,if you can inform me by sites about bahais, its would help me much, thank you for your assistance.

Ted Hoffman

DamienVryce has asked very good questiona and made important observations.

shuntyadragon,

Do you have any evidence that the "Moslems, Buddhists, Shintoists, Native American religions and others" have any such concept as "the time of fullfilment" and what does it mean to them?

And do you have or know of any documentary evidence that can prove that people of those faiths believed it would be between 1844 and 1863?

When you say this occured worldwide - do you mean the fulfilment (which fulfilment?) occured worldwide?
If so, how so?

I think you will need to be more specific. Even Revelation talks about signs at the end of the times and depending on what one chooses to believe, the end of the times could be anywhere in the last 300 years because the history of mankind is rife with calamities and atrocities and depravities. From the dark plague, the world wars, the slave trade, the scrambles for colonies and so on, earthquakes, genocides etc. To the discovery of bacteria, the telegraph, atomic bomb, transistors, round earth, cure of smallpox etc.

One need only choose and interpret.
How do you separate coincidence from "prophecy coming true"?

What God hath wraught had nothing to do with Bahai faith or the declarations made by the Bahais. This is just attempting to use coincidence to aggrandize a vague proclamation of a religion.

Can you prove that the transmission of the first telegraphic message was prophesized? Cite the verses and books.

Cite the passages.
Release the sun can be interpreted to mean very many different things. Sears has a book with the title and I have looked it over.

The relativity theory is not the "basis of modern science".

Secondly, the Special Theory of Relativity was introduced in 1905, and General Theory of Relativity in 1915 - these are different from the dates 1844 and 1863.

Thirdly, I think you are confusing relativity with nuclear fission. The latter helped develop the atomic bomb which can be compared to "splitting an atom and releasing a sun". Fission, simply put, is a nuclear reaction in which an atomic nucleus splits into fragments, usually two fragments of comparable mass, emitting 100 million to several hundred million volts of energy. This energy is expelled explosively and violently in the atomic bomb.

Relativity, which talks of inertial frames of reference and gravity and the like, is a bit tangential to nuclear fission.

For lack of a better expression, I will tell you this is bullshit. Your dates are wrong, your understanding is faulty.
Replacement of Newtonian physics by Einstenian physics had got nothing to do with religious prophecies or declarations but had everything to do with testing and picking the more correct theory.

There is no such thing "the harmony of science and religion". This is religious propaganda and only those that do not understand the war science has fought with religious dogma can buy such falsehoods.

Even as you read this post, science is battling with religion. Today, creationists wielding PhDs have colluded to form a movement called Intelligent Design theory which is meant to discredit and replace evolution and the battle has gone to schools and to court and so on.

Cite verses. Show how this event is related to the Bahai faith and its significance in terms of women rights for example. Did that conference improve women's rights? How so?
Do you know the events that took place in Africa between 1843 and 1844 - why are they unrelated to the Bahai faith?

Translations of religious texts, like printing, is an activity that was stretched over many centuries. How you can attempt to nail these activities to one year is strange indeed.

World Population also increased rapidly after 1844 after hitting the 1 billion mark. Polio killed a huge number of people. What have this got to do with Bahai?

As far as printing is concerned, Gutenberg conceived the idea for movable type in 1452 and developed the first printing press and the technological improvements that increased volumes of publication stretch across five centuries. What have these got to do with Bahai?

How different is this statement from: "The surge in the number of inventions and discoveries goes geometric after 1848"?

How is your statement more correct than the one I have provided? How do you prove it was "after 1844" and not "after 1848" - being as vague as you are?

The evidence please.