Raydo97

I got into an interesting, albeit brief, conversation with a co-worker this morning regarding the "historical" evidence for Christianity. I am neck deep in Fundyville, so I have to choose my words carefully, but I indicated to her that I tend to base my beliefs on things that can be demonstrated and verified. She then began to inform me that "that's what's great about being a Christian. My husband (a preacher) and I were just talking about all of the historical records that were kept that verify the gospels. Most people don't realize that there were a lot of people keeping records during biblical times and if you don't believe the bible, you can just look it up in a dozen other places."

I said, "that's interesting. Who are these authors? I would like to read these historical documents." She said, "oh... I don't know. But, these people wrote about the miracles Jesus performed and even described the wounds he suffered during the crucifixion." She went on to tout the existence of historical records that verify everything from the exodus to the flood.

I tried to wade in and carefully point out that there are no extra-biblical historical documents that claim eye witness accounts of Jesus' miracles or crucifixion and the woman started to lose control of her emotions! She was visibly agitated and suddenly became very loud. She absolutely refused to let me finish my point, interrupting to explain that even though she couldn't identify any of these secular writers, she knows there's an abundance of them because her husband is a preacher and he said so!

I could see that she was about to lose control in the workplace, so I simply reiterated my interest in seeing these corroborative historical documents and let it die.

Do you have any idea what she's talking about? I have never seen any kind of historical record of Jesus written by a contemporary. I am aware of some passing references that have been interpreted as being about Jesus from historians such as Josephus, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger. However, none of them actually knew Jesus personally and do not provide first hand accounts of his life. Am I missing something?

What I'm interested in is finding the truth, whatever that truth may be. If there is proof of Jesus, his crucifixion, and his miracles, then I want to see it. I haven't seen it yet, but if it's out there, I want to know. If she can show me the evidence that supports her position, I'll glady adjust my understanding of history.

Sadly, I'm certain that she would not be willing to offer me the same deal. She is only interested in supporting what she believes, not pursing the truth, no matter where it leads.

Thanks.

Toto

There are no secular witnesses to Jesus, but there are modern writers who claim that the gospels were based on eyewitness testimony remembered, and are historically accurate. The only people who are sure of this today are fundamentalists.

Pointing this out will probably destroy your relationship with this woman, whatever it is.

WNCAtheists

Whether or not Jesus was an actual historical figure is pointless if the history available isn't accurate.

See if she can pass this test: Dan's Easter Challenge

If the Christian Bible is authentic in its historicity, then she should be able to pass the test, if not, then the questions arise:

What parts are inacurate?

Can any part be deemed more accurate than the others, and if so on what basis?

If the Christian Bible itself doesn't contain an accurate history, what makes her think that writings that weren't "god inspired" would be accurate?

If this doesn't work on her, or if you prefer a different approach, you might try quoting
I Timothy 2:11 at her.

Darrell

Stacey Melissa

My frame of mind was very similar about the evidence for Christianity's truth when I was a Christian. Well, actually, I was just ignorant, not willfully ignorant.

Anyway, I didn't have to deal with a preacher husband when I was a Christian, so it wasn't really that tough of a break from religion. Your co-worker, OTOH, isn't so lucky. Pursuing the subject further with her will probably just lead to turmoil. It would likely include marital problems for her, in addition to a hostile work environment for the two of you. If her husband was properly educated in a reputable seminary (is that an oxymoron?), he is well aware that there is no more evidence than the Josephus, etc. accounts that you already mentioned. Whatever he told his wife about that stuff was probably an exagerration, and possibly an outright lie. Or maybe he properly informed her, and she just inflated what he said to fit her beliefs. I don't know. But if she blows her top when asked for simple evidence, then I doubt it will get any better when she finds there is none.

Hooboy !!

Flavius Josephus is probably the best non-bibilical source to corraborate the existence of Jesus. There are some problems though with his works...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Personally, it is hard for me to imagine a whole new religion forming without the benefit of a central figure being present. This leads me to conclude that Jesus did exist. What he taught, his reported miracles and the account of his death is view with skepticism by me though.

There are also other independent sources that provide verification for certain events and people in the Bible. I am less familiar with those though and I don't think there is enough to conclude that independent verification of the entire Bible exists. Portions though for certain.

All this adds up to though is that the Bible is not entirely a fictional work.

Bright Life

In the text, Josephus is said to state that Jesus was the Christ. Um, do you think that a Jew, writing for Jews would make that kind of statement?

In the accounts I have read about Josephus, this is a major sticking point. It seems a tell-tale sign that this bit was added in later.

BL

Vorkosigan

I agree. But what if that founder were not Jesus but James or Paul????

ex-idaho

Once I was in a position where one employee of mine was openly criticizing another because she was Mormon. Calling her a devil worshipper and ridiculing her faith. I couldn't let him get away with it so I laid into him demanding he answer a few of the inconsistencies and contradictions from the Bible. Within 10 minutes I had him crying.

Jabu Khan

I observed a couple mormons grilling an aethist girl, in the break room, on what happened to her in her childhood to make her an atheist. Insisting that she must have been molested, raped, abandoned by her father or something of that nature. I brought up that anyone who can read could easily reach the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a child molester, serial rapist, counterfieter, thief, mass murderer, extortionist and a con-man. I also think I might have said something about the book of mormon largely plagerizing another book and brought up the altered egyptian seal tracings and salamander papers. I think my Assistant manager may have been mormon because he had it in for me from that point on. They must have spoken to him about it. I doubt they included the fact that they were harassing a young girl at the time.

Face

In searching for the specific Biblical references and reasons for it, I believe that the upper fora are more appropriate. Go go Gadget thread tools!