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Old 10-20-2004, 07:24 AM   #1
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Default Lunatic, Liar or Lord?

I'm not sure I'm in the right place for this, but I wanted to know what people thought of the following:

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Ultimately, what the great philosopher and writer C.S. Lewis said has logically got to be true "Jesus was either a lunatic, a liar, or else He is Lord." (Mere Christianity, (The Macmillan Company, 1952), C.S. Lewis, p. 41) And His life, death and resurrection should prove beyond any shadow of a doubt to anyone seeking the truth that the latter is the case Jesus is Lord, the true Messiah of God. And that's why Satan tries so hard to convince man to the contrary.
It's a quote from here.
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Old 10-20-2004, 07:35 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by collyblom
I'm not sure I'm in the right place for this, but I wanted to know what people thought of the following:



It's a quote from here.
This is the classic false dilemma argument.

I can think of at least one other possible alternative:

The person who wrote the Gospel of John made up the quotes.

I thought Lewis was supposed to be such a smart guy.
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Old 10-20-2004, 07:38 AM   #3
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Here is more information on this particular logical fallacy:

http://skepdic.com/falsedilemma.html
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Old 10-20-2004, 07:43 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by collyblom
I'm not sure I'm in the right place for this, but I wanted to know what people thought of the following:



It's a quote from here.
I think that many people will query the 'great philosopher' tag. How about just calling him as writer of great children's books, who happened not to like children.

One reason why he isn't held in very high esteem for his philosophy is the way he just ignores alternative answers. In this case, he didn't pause to wonder whether Jesus actually existed. Nor did he pause to consider the wider question of: if a 'Jesus' did exist upon which the Gospels are 'based', the Jesus who appears in the bible may bear little or no relation to whichever real person or persons (and whether actually called Jesus or not) it was 'based' upon.

A simple example is King Arthur. Just because historians may one day be able to say where and when the real King Arthur ruled, it does not mean that he really is asleep under Richmond Castle and that one day he will return to rid England of the, um, Saxons.

Luxie
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Old 10-20-2004, 08:37 AM   #5
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I think it's also got a lot to do with the way the question is worded. For example, by using the term "lunatic" (no longer in use today), it makes it a lot harder to contemplate the possibility of this person actually experiencing passing periods of mental illness. In terms of schizophrenia particularly, this is true (funny how schizophrenics are often associated with having unusual religious beliefs).... Also, the statement is *almost* convincing because the person it is directed to will probably have little experience with mental illnesses, and is therefore ill-equipped to refute the claim, and may end up basing their belief on the integrity of the person posing the dilemma.
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Old 10-20-2004, 08:49 AM   #6
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Though I disagree with Lewis, I think in fairness to him we should not saddle him with our disapprobation since he was trying in his own limited way to explain and shore up his own faith when he wrote this stuff. And he did it in an unobnoxious fashion.

Rather, our irritation should be focused on people like Josh McDowell who have taken what Lewis said to the extreme end of the spectrum. They are quite clearly obnoxious, misinformed, illogical, and sadly lacking in scholarship.
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Old 10-20-2004, 09:36 AM   #7
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A weak argument on two levels:

1. Jesus does sound kind of like a lunatic, so we can't rule out that option.
2. He left out an option- Legend: Jesus was made up/his quotes were made up.

-B
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Old 10-20-2004, 09:43 AM   #8
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Or what about this one (I think I read in Bishop Spong's book), Jesus thought he was the messiah, but he was mistaken.
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Old 10-20-2004, 10:11 AM   #9
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Couldn't it be said that Jesus never claimed he was the messiah. Didn't he merely want to clean up the corruption that was apparent in the Jewish politics/religion of his time.
More of a monk than a messiah.
The idea of Jesus as messiah was later inserted into the NT ( claiming to be in Jesus' words), to lend credence to the burgeoning religion of Christianity.

Just my thoughts,
Maxine

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Old 10-20-2004, 11:00 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictetus
Rather, our irritation should be focused on people like Josh McDowell who have taken what Lewis said to the extreme end of the spectrum. They are quite clearly obnoxious, misinformed, illogical, and sadly lacking in scholarship.
I first came across it in The Alpha Course, as used by Nicky Gumbell (which I reckon is a well put together series, although has serious holes in it). And I quoted it as used by Eric Holmberg, dodgy anti-secular music pseudoscholar....
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