Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Enai · 05-03-2004, 06:20 AM

Hello Guys,

I was wondering: Does a book exist that deals scientifically with the origins of christianity? By scientifically I mean without an apparent bias toward the story of the gospels, preferably written by non-christian scholars. I'm intersted in a look at christianity as a societal phenomenon. For instance, I know how scientology was started: basically, L. Ron Hubbard spewed forth a lot of rubbish and wowed peolpe with it. But with regard to christianity, I know nothing but the story of the believers themselves.

Enai

05-03-2004, 07:32 AM

If you want to know how Christianity became a major religion then try Rodney Stark's the Rise of Christianity. He's an agnostic sociologist who has used his work on modern cults to illuminate the early church. For the Historical Jesus, look at the recommended reading thread on the Biblical Criticism board.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Enai · 05-03-2004, 07:45 AM

Thanks, Bede!

Ab_Normal · 05-03-2004, 09:17 AM

I'd also recommend A History of God, by Karen Armstrong. It covers Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

lpetrich · 05-03-2004, 10:55 AM

Robin Lane Fox's Pagans and Christians -- does anyone here think it's any good?

05-03-2004, 01:00 PM

Pagans and Christians is a masterpiece but not an introduction or even a plain narrative history.

B

Toto · 05-03-2004, 01:31 PM

Read about The Rise of Christianity in the linked thread. This is actually more a discussion of how Christianity became a dominant force in the Roman empire, but not how it started.

For an alternative view of Christian origins, you might want to check out www.jesuspuzzle.com which discusses how Christianity could have started without a historical Jesus or get the book The Jesus Puzzle.

The best historical Jesus book IMHO is Bart Ehrman's Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium.

You might also be interested in Peter Kirby's Theories of the Historical Jesus, which will give you a view of the variety of theories out there.

Infidelettante · 05-03-2004, 03:46 PM

Here are several books that helped me grasp the complexity of the beginnings of Christianity. There are many schools of thought on the subject and no one work can do it justice. Read as many as you can find and afford then make up your own mind. Good luck.

The Birth of Christianity, Reality and Myth by Joel Carmichael from Dorset Press.

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the first Christians by Robert Eisenman from Element Books.

The Mythmaker, Paul and the Invention of Christianity by Hyam Maccoby from Barnes and Noble Books, New York.

The Jesus Mysteries by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy from Three Rivers Press.

I’m reading Freke and Gandy’s Jesus and the Lost Goddess now and you may want to read it as well. It is a good explanation of the Gnostic aspects of early Christianity. I’m beginning to think that if we don’t at least try to understand Gnosticism we can’t really understand how Christianity began as the Gnostics may very well have been the first Christians.

JT

braces_for_impact · 05-03-2004, 04:08 PM

Heaved over to BC & H.

Malachi151 · 05-03-2004, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enai

Hello Guys,

I was wondering: Does a book exist that deals scientifically with the origins of christianity? By scientifically I mean without an apparent bias toward the story of the gospels, preferably written by non-christian scholars. I'm intersted in a look at christianity as a societal phenomenon. For instance, I know how scientology was started: basically, L. Ron Hubbard spewed forth a lot of rubbish and wowed peolpe with it. But with regard to christianity, I know nothing but the story of the believers themselves.

Enai

Many, many great boks were written on this subject during the 17 and 1800s. For me, I have found that the best works were those written in Germany and France during the late 1800s.

My personal favorites are those by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, of course, but there are actually hundreds of books written on this subject during that time.

Here are a few examples:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...2/05/bauer.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...nity/index.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...1895/03/06.htm

Quote:

It is now, almost to the year, sixteen centuries since a dangerous party of overthrow was likewise active in the Roman empire. It undermined religion and all the foundations of the state; it flatly denied that Caesar’s will was the supreme law; it was without a fatherland, was international; it spread over the whole empire, from Gaul to Asia, and beyond the frontiers of the empire. It had long carried on seditious activities underground in secret; for a considerable time, however, it had felt itself strong enough to come out into the open. This party of overthrow, which was known by the name of Christians, was also strongly represented in the army; whole legions were Christian. When they were ordered to attend the sacrificial ceremonies of the pagan established church, in order to do the honours there, the subversive soldiers had the audacity to stick peculiar emblems — crosses — on their helmets in protest. Even the customary barrack bullying of their superior officers was fruitless. The Emperor Diocletian could no longer quietly look on while order, obedience and discipline in his army were being undermined. He stepped in with vigour, while there was still time. He promulgated an anti-Socialist — I beg your pardon, I meant to say anti-Christian-law. The meetings of the overthrowers were forbidden , their meeting halls were closed or even pulled down, the Christian emblems, crosses, etc., were, like the red handkerchiefs in Saxony, prohibited. Christians were declared ineligible for holding public office; they were not to be allowed to become even corporals. Since at that time there were no judges so well trained in “respect of persons�? as Mr. von Köller’s anti-overthrow bill assumes, Christians were forbidden out of hand to seek justice before a court. Even this exceptional law was to no avail. The Christians tore it down from the walls with scorn; they are even supposed to have set fire to the Emperor’s palace in Nicomedia in his presence. Then the latter revenged himself by the great persecution of Christians in the year 303 A.D. It was the last of its kind. And it was so effective that seventeen years later the army consisted overwhelmingly of Christians, and the succeeding autocrat of the whole Roman empire, Constantine, called the Great by the priests, proclaimed Christianity the state religion.

05-03-2004, 06:20 AM	#1
Enai Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 1,479	Book about the origin of christianity wanted Hello Guys, I was wondering: Does a book exist that deals scientifically with the origins of christianity? By scientifically I mean without an apparent bias toward the story of the gospels, preferably written by non-christian scholars. I'm intersted in a look at christianity as a societal phenomenon. For instance, I know how scientology was started: basically, L. Ron Hubbard spewed forth a lot of rubbish and wowed peolpe with it. But with regard to christianity, I know nothing but the story of the believers themselves. Enai

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05-03-2004, 07:32 AM	#2
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	If you want to know how Christianity became a major religion then try Rodney Stark's the Rise of Christianity. He's an agnostic sociologist who has used his work on modern cults to illuminate the early church. For the Historical Jesus, look at the recommended reading thread on the Biblical Criticism board. Yours Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason

05-03-2004, 07:45 AM	#3
Enai Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 1,479	Thanks, Bede!

05-03-2004, 09:17 AM	#4
Ab_Normal Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,842	I'd also recommend A History of God, by Karen Armstrong. It covers Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

05-03-2004, 10:55 AM	#5
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Robin Lane Fox's Pagans and Christians -- does anyone here think it's any good?

05-03-2004, 01:00 PM	#6
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	Pagans and Christians is a masterpiece but not an introduction or even a plain narrative history. B

05-03-2004, 01:31 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Read about The Rise of Christianity in the linked thread. This is actually more a discussion of how Christianity became a dominant force in the Roman empire, but not how it started. For an alternative view of Christian origins, you might want to check out www.jesuspuzzle.com which discusses how Christianity could have started without a historical Jesus or get the book The Jesus Puzzle. The best historical Jesus book IMHO is Bart Ehrman's Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium. You might also be interested in Peter Kirby's Theories of the Historical Jesus, which will give you a view of the variety of theories out there.

05-03-2004, 03:46 PM	#8
Infidelettante Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 889	Here are several books that helped me grasp the complexity of the beginnings of Christianity. There are many schools of thought on the subject and no one work can do it justice. Read as many as you can find and afford then make up your own mind. Good luck. The Birth of Christianity, Reality and Myth by Joel Carmichael from Dorset Press. The Dead Sea Scrolls and the first Christians by Robert Eisenman from Element Books. The Mythmaker, Paul and the Invention of Christianity by Hyam Maccoby from Barnes and Noble Books, New York. The Jesus Mysteries by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy from Three Rivers Press. I’m reading Freke and Gandy’s Jesus and the Lost Goddess now and you may want to read it as well. It is a good explanation of the Gnostic aspects of early Christianity. I’m beginning to think that if we don’t at least try to understand Gnosticism we can’t really understand how Christianity began as the Gnostics may very well have been the first Christians. JT

05-03-2004, 04:08 PM	#9
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Heaved over to BC & H.

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