Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 07-27-2008, 03:19 AM

So, I guess to sum up, was it the translation into Greek where the conversion of proper names to the more generic "God" and "Lord" took place, and that all Christian works simply used these more generic terms due to the Greek heritage?

And, an additional question. Was the use of YHWH and El (and those names of the same family), etc., in the Hebrew writings similar to having a Roman text that would have talked about Zeus and Jupiter?

I mean if a Roman complied a book of stories about the father of the gods, and in this book they simply took Greek works and converted them into Latin but retained the name Zeus in the Greek origin stories and used in the name Jupiter in the Roman origin stories is that similar to what we see in the Hebrew Bible with YHWH and El?

Clivedurdle · 07-27-2008, 03:50 AM

Quote:

a religious invocation of no precise meaning evoked by the mysterious and awesome splendour of the manifestation of the holy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0J7O960ls

NSFW!

vid · 07-27-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

So, I guess to sum up, was it the translation into Greek where the conversion of proper names to the more generic "God" and "Lord" took place, and that all Christian works simply used these more generic terms due to the Greek heritage?

My quess would be that this merging of deities happened earlier, sometime after compilation of Genesis.

Septuagint was written by Jews anyway, so if they viewed these names as refering to separate deities, they wouldn't translate them to same god. Translation simply reflected ideas that Jews held by time of translation.

HaRaAYaH · 07-27-2008, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

So, I guess to sum up, was it the translation into Greek where the conversion of proper names to the more generic "God" and "Lord" took place, and that all Christian works simply used these more generic terms due to the Greek heritage?

My quess would be that this merging of deities happened earlier, sometime after compilation of Genesis.

Septuagint was written by Jews anyway, so if they viewed these names as refering to separate deities, they wouldn't translate them to same god. Translation simply reflected ideas that Jews held by time of translation.

True but not true. Yes it was written by Jews, but the masoretic text in Hebrew with the different names remains to this day....

Anat · 07-27-2008, 07:11 PM

While El was a proper name of a deity, the word Elohim is used in the Hebrew Bible both as a generic term for a deity as in 'Elohei Mitzraim' - the gods of Egypt and a proper name of the deity. YHWH, Yah and similar derivatives are always used as proper names.

neilgodfrey · 07-27-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

So, I guess to sum up, was it the translation into Greek where the conversion of proper names to the more generic "God" and "Lord" took place, and that all Christian works simply used these more generic terms due to the Greek heritage?

Not so simple. There is evidence that "the Deuteronomist" did a lot of the editing. The Deuteronomist (person or school) appears to have been responsible for some of the conversions, attempting to replace El with Yahweh.

This seems to have been the point of Exodus 3:15

Quote:

God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

and Exodus 6:2-3

Quote:

God also said to Moses, "I am the LORD. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them. I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Canaan, where they lived as aliens.

The God of the Patriarchal narratives was El. Someone is substituting that now with Yahweh, and identifying Yahweh with El.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

And, an additional question. Was the use of YHWH and El (and those names of the same family), etc., in the Hebrew writings similar to having a Roman text that would have talked about Zeus and Jupiter?

I mean if a Roman complied a book of stories about the father of the gods, and in this book they simply took Greek works and converted them into Latin but retained the name Zeus in the Greek origin stories and used in the name Jupiter in the Roman origin stories is that similar to what we see in the Hebrew Bible with YHWH and El?

One of the sons of El was Baal. Another was Yahweh. El imagery in the myths is centred around the divine court and throne in heaven, while the imagery associated with Baal is of storms. Yahweh was elided into both, it appears. But there is no anti-El polemic as there is anti-Baal polemic by the Yahweh adherents.

But there appears to be some debate about the extent of the reforms of the Deuteronomists. Were they a fringe group who had little impact on those who continued to treat Yahweh as a son of El? Or did that latter group find itself on the defensive?

The characteristics of the El religion that were opposed by the Deuts did continue to appear in Second Temple lit such as 1 Enoch, and again in early Christian lit: e.g. the importance of the role of Wisdom (the Deuts replaced this with Law), the vision of God (not just the hearing), the hosts of heaven .... compare also the parable of the sheep and goats, where the King judges (compare Baal's role) but also refers to a higher father (compare El).

Most of this is from Margaret Barker, but is also found in works of Philip Davies, Thomas Thompson et al.

Strict monotheism may have been a rival brand of "Judaism" that only won out after 70 c.e.?

Neil

Anat · 07-27-2008, 08:48 PM

Neil (or anyone else who might know): I know there is evidence for El worship outside the Bible, such as from Ugarit. I know of references to YHWH such as Yahweh of Samaria in the Kuntillet Ajrud shard, or YHWH from Khirbet el-Kom. But is there extra-Biblical evidence for YHWH as a son of El?

neilgodfrey · 07-27-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Neil (or anyone else who might know): I know there is evidence for El worship outside the Bible, such as from Ugarit. I know of references to YHWH such as Yahweh of Samaria in the Kuntillet Ajrud shard, or YHWH from Khirbet el-Kom. But is there extra-Biblical evidence for YHWH as a son of El?

Being 2239.68 miles from my personal library I can't confirm details for a little while, but I don't recall anything concrete. 1 Enoch lists the names of angelic watchers of El, sons of El(?), with -el name endings. And the Apocalypse of Abraham, IIRC, cites the name Yahwehel. This may suggest that Yahweh was some offshoot or servant or manifestation of El.

The direct evidence is extra-Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible. From my summary of Barker on this topic:

Quote:

Deuteronomy 32:8

Quote:

When the Most High [Elyon] gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of men,
he fixed the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God ['el].

The “Sons of El” is found in the Qumran Hebrew, and the LXX also speaks of “sons of God”. The much later (and post 70 c.e.) MT text, however, appears to have replaced “Sons of God” with “Sons of Israel”.

The sons of God in the earlier text are here described as the patron deities of the nations. Elyon the High God has allocated the nations to the various sons of God, one of whom was Yahweh. Elyon gave Yahweh the nation of Israel:

Deuteronomy 32:9

Quote:

For the LORD’s [Yahweh's] portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

This evidence suggests that an original claim that Yahweh was a son of El was suppressed in the later Masoretic text.

Neil

Malachi151 · 07-28-2008, 06:15 AM

Take Psalm 82 for example. Robert Alter's translation is:

Quote:

Psalm 82:

An Asaph psalm.
1 God takes His stand in the Divine assembly,
in the midst of the gods He renders judgment.
2 "How long will you judge dishonestly,
and show favor to the wicked?
3 Do justice to the poor and the orphan.
Vindicate the lowly and the wretched.
4 Free the poor and the needy,
from the hand of the wicked save them.
5 They do not know and do not grasp.
in darkness they walk about.
All the earth's foundations totter.
6 As for Me, I had thought: you were gods,
and the son of the Most High were you all.
7 Yet indeed like humans you shall die,
and like one of the princes, fall."
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth,
for You hold in estate all the nations.

But it doesn't say in his notes who this "God" is. Is this El, YHWH, or something else?

If I were to guess, "God", "His", "Me", and "I" all refer to YHWH, while "the Most High" is El.

So the question is, is there a text of this in Hebrew that reads:

Quote:

Psalm 82:

An Asaph psalm.
1 YHWH takes His stand in the Divine assembly,
in the midst of the gods He renders judgment.
2 "How long will you judge dishonestly,
and show favor to the wicked?
3 Do justice to the poor and the orphan.
Vindicate the lowly and the wretched.
4 Free the poor and the needy,
from the hand of the wicked save them.
5 They do not know and do not grasp.
in darkness they walk about.
All the earth's foundations totter.
6 As for Me, I had thought: you were gods,
and the son of Elyon were you all.
7 Yet indeed like humans you shall die,
and like one of the princes, fall."
8 Arise, O YHWH, judge the earth,
for You hold in estate all the nations.

Anat · 07-28-2008, 08:44 AM

MT has Elohim for all those references to God, and the Divine assembly is the assembly of El. See Mechon Mamre's Hebrew-English version.

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07-27-2008, 03:19 AM	#21
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	So, I guess to sum up, was it the translation into Greek where the conversion of proper names to the more generic "God" and "Lord" took place, and that all Christian works simply used these more generic terms due to the Greek heritage? And, an additional question. Was the use of YHWH and El (and those names of the same family), etc., in the Hebrew writings similar to having a Roman text that would have talked about Zeus and Jupiter? I mean if a Roman complied a book of stories about the father of the gods, and in this book they simply took Greek works and converted them into Latin but retained the name Zeus in the Greek origin stories and used in the name Jupiter in the Roman origin stories is that similar to what we see in the Hebrew Bible with YHWH and El?

07-27-2008, 07:11 PM	#25
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	While El was a proper name of a deity, the word Elohim is used in the Hebrew Bible both as a generic term for a deity as in 'Elohei Mitzraim' - the gods of Egypt and a proper name of the deity. YHWH, Yah and similar derivatives are always used as proper names.

07-27-2008, 08:48 PM	#27
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Neil (or anyone else who might know): I know there is evidence for El worship outside the Bible, such as from Ugarit. I know of references to YHWH such as Yahweh of Samaria in the Kuntillet Ajrud shard, or YHWH from Khirbet el-Kom. But is there extra-Biblical evidence for YHWH as a son of El?

07-28-2008, 08:44 AM	#30
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	MT has Elohim for all those references to God, and the Divine assembly is the assembly of El. See Mechon Mamre's Hebrew-English version.

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