Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Consistent Thinker · 10-06-2003, 10:59 AM

how does one explain the self-proclaimed jewish status, past and present, as "god's chosen people?" Did the ancient hebrews honestly believe that a deity exists and that they are the best to him/it, or was it a deliberate lie that was invented for some other purpose(s)?

premjan · 10-06-2003, 11:05 AM

well, the jews wanted land so they made an imaginary contract with God, hoping that if they did everything just the way some imaginary all-powerful man in the sky wanted, he would be pleased enough with them to give them a land of their own. they were lucky enough to find a land of milk and honey, some of the most fertile land in the middle east, outside iraq, the land of israel, which along with coastal syria, southern Turkey and Iraq forms the fertile crescent.

Rick Sumner · 10-06-2003, 12:44 PM

YHWH is, I think, pretty clearly an extension of the Canaanite pantheon. Take a look at Ps.82, for example.

He went from a tribal god of that pantheon, to being the strongest god in that pantheon, to being the only god in the pantheon.

The problem with your question is that it presupposes that the Hebrews made up anything of the sort for whatever reason. YHWH most likely predates them, they just adapted him.

I have little doubt that the earliest Hebrews, having been raised with that pantheon, believed YHWH was real.

Regards,
Rick

Doctor X · 10-06-2003, 02:15 PM

Indeed.

People should not forget that religions develop overtime and that the Bible preserves a part of this development.

It reminds me of a women who insisted that Jews of the 1st century C.E. were "just like ultra-orthodox Jews of today!"

Where did they get the hats from?

--J.D.

Gawdawful · 10-06-2003, 02:41 PM

I think that after a few fortunate things just coincidentally happened to them and after handily defeating the previous occupants of these relatively fertile lands, the Jews honestly thought they were chosen by YHWH as his own special people.

Just my opinion though.

Warren in Oklahoma

Mullibok · 10-06-2003, 02:43 PM

Maybe a few priests at the beginning knew what was going on, but I dare to venture that the vast majority of Hebrews at the time believed their holy books.

DoodleBug · 10-06-2003, 06:43 PM

i personally believe that they believed n it, and that it just started over a long period of time. i think it's all bullshit, but i believe it started the same way that all of the greek myths about gods started. i mean the greeks though that there were tons and tons of gods, so i dont find it hard to believe that the hebrews believed that there was 1 god.

Doctor X · 10-07-2003, 04:15 PM

Except the Hebrews did not believe in one god.

--J.D.

Vinnie · 10-07-2003, 07:41 PM

I find the title of this thread objectionable and irrelevant!

The Jewish people of anitiquity were idiots just like all the exclusivistic theists today! As Marcus Borg said, "Does it make sense that the creator of the whole universe would be known in only one religious tradition, which (fortunately) just happens to be our own?" Religious pluralism or bust! Woot!

Vinnie

10-07-2003, 08:13 PM

There is nothing wrong with slanting the good book in your favor if you seek to attract followers.

I am sure that the Jews (along with the Catholics) are Gods favorite people in the land of their birth justs as Buddhists are the Buddha's favorite people in the land of their birth.

Religions, all religions, are like vehicles to get from A to B and the passengers are both A's and B's favorite people for many different reasons, as you can well imagine.

View Poll Results: What is the explanation for the jews' alleged chosen status?
The anceint hebrews deliberately made it up, along with an insincere endorsement of monotheism	12	20.34%
The ancient hebrews honestly believed in one deity and their chosen status	43	72.88%
Undecided	4	6.78%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

10-06-2003, 10:59 AM	#1
Consistent Thinker Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 811	Since god probably does not exist, how does one explain the self-proclaimed jewish status, past and present, as "god's chosen people?" Did the ancient hebrews honestly believe that a deity exists and that they are the best to him/it, or was it a deliberate lie that was invented for some other purpose(s)?

10-06-2003, 11:05 AM	#2
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	god and the jews well, the jews wanted land so they made an imaginary contract with God, hoping that if they did everything just the way some imaginary all-powerful man in the sky wanted, he would be pleased enough with them to give them a land of their own. they were lucky enough to find a land of milk and honey, some of the most fertile land in the middle east, outside iraq, the land of israel, which along with coastal syria, southern Turkey and Iraq forms the fertile crescent.

10-07-2003, 08:13 PM	#10
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Since god probably does not exist, There is nothing wrong with slanting the good book in your favor if you seek to attract followers. I am sure that the Jews (along with the Catholics) are Gods favorite people in the land of their birth justs as Buddhists are the Buddha's favorite people in the land of their birth. Religions, all religions, are like vehicles to get from A to B and the passengers are both A's and B's favorite people for many different reasons, as you can well imagine.

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10-06-2003, 12:44 PM	#3
Rick Sumner Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada Posts: 2,612	YHWH is, I think, pretty clearly an extension of the Canaanite pantheon. Take a look at Ps.82, for example. He went from a tribal god of that pantheon, to being the strongest god in that pantheon, to being the only god in the pantheon. The problem with your question is that it presupposes that the Hebrews made up anything of the sort for whatever reason. YHWH most likely predates them, they just adapted him. I have little doubt that the earliest Hebrews, having been raised with that pantheon, believed YHWH was real. Regards, Rick

10-06-2003, 02:15 PM	#4
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Indeed. People should not forget that religions develop overtime and that the Bible preserves a part of this development. It reminds me of a women who insisted that Jews of the 1st century C.E. were "just like ultra-orthodox Jews of today!" Where did they get the hats from? --J.D.

10-06-2003, 02:41 PM	#5
Gawdawful Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In a cardboard box under the viaduct. Posts: 2,107	I think that after a few fortunate things just coincidentally happened to them and after handily defeating the previous occupants of these relatively fertile lands, the Jews honestly thought they were chosen by YHWH as his own special people. Just my opinion though. Warren in Oklahoma

10-06-2003, 02:43 PM	#6
Mullibok Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: St. Paul, MN Posts: 814	Maybe a few priests at the beginning knew what was going on, but I dare to venture that the vast majority of Hebrews at the time believed their holy books.

10-06-2003, 06:43 PM	#7
DoodleBug Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: PA Posts: 49	i personally believe that they believed n it, and that it just started over a long period of time. i think it's all bullshit, but i believe it started the same way that all of the greek myths about gods started. i mean the greeks though that there were tons and tons of gods, so i dont find it hard to believe that the hebrews believed that there was 1 god.

10-07-2003, 04:15 PM	#8
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Except the Hebrews did not believe in one god. --J.D.

10-07-2003, 07:41 PM	#9
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	I find the title of this thread objectionable and irrelevant! The Jewish people of anitiquity were idiots just like all the exclusivistic theists today! As Marcus Borg said, "Does it make sense that the creator of the whole universe would be known in only one religious tradition, which (fortunately) just happens to be our own?" Religious pluralism or bust! Woot! Vinnie

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