Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 02-06-2007, 08:14 AM

Some places have obvious theological meanings - Rome (whore of Babylon, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Egypt.

What of others - Damascus, Galilee, Capernaum.

Assuming gnostics with hidden knowledge and stuff for the initiates to learn, might there be hidden meanings behind the choice of places? What of Paul's letters?

Should we assume any geographical facts behind the place dropping?

Clivedurdle · 02-06-2007, 01:18 PM

This is quite a simple proposition. We continually use places for story telling purposes - Chicago, Smallville, Gotham, Springfield, San Francisco, New York, Woodstock, Glastonbury, Miami, From Russia with Love ....

Has anyone asked if that might have happened here?

Quote:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them; He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."

Toto · 02-06-2007, 01:28 PM

There was a long article on Peter Kirby's christianorigins.com site ("Qumran and Early Christianity") that argued that Damascus was a standin for Qumran, which was a holy city for the Essenes. It is now increasingly clear that Qumran was a pottery factory, but it seems that Damascus might very well be a symbolic reference to some holy place, especially in Paul's letters.

I keep reading that Galilee is the land of the gentiles, and this has some meaning.

But I'm not sure what you're asking for. Speculation? References?

Clivedurdle · 02-06-2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Boney M
By The Rivers Of Babylon

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.
When the wicked
Carried us away in captivity
Required from us a song
Now how shall we sing the lord's song in a strange land
When the wicked
Carried us away in captivity
Requiering of us a song
Now how shall we sing the lord's song in a strange land
Let the words of our mouth and the meditations of our heart
be acceptable in thy sight here tonight
Let the words of our mouth and the meditation of our hearts
be acceptable in thy sight here tonight

Is it not an assumption that places have real historic purposes in these texts? What if the purpose is literary, poetic, theological?

I understand until very recently hardly anyone had a concept of a map. When for example Paul mentioned these places, what responses occured in people's heads?

Clivedurdle · 02-06-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There was a long article on Peter Kirby's christianorigins.com site ("Qumran and Early Christianity") that argued that Damascus was a standin for Qumran, which was a holy city for the Essenes. It is now increasingly clear that Qumran was a pottery factory, but it seems that Damascus might very well be a symbolic reference to some holy place, especially in Paul's letters.

I keep reading that Galilee is the land of the gentiles, and this has some meaning.

But I'm not sure what you're asking for. Speculation? References?

A discussion. I do see huge symbolic, poetic, literary and theological reasons behind quoting these places. Has an interpretation mistake occured because we think now in terms of maps and places and geography?

Remember when the KJV was translated, at the beginnings of the discovery of America, during a time of huge improvements in map making.

Toto · 02-06-2007, 01:46 PM

The people of classical Greece and Rome were familiar with maps. They sailed ships to various places, and had to know where they were going and how to get back. Geography is not a modern invention.

But there are clearly symbolic meanings to some place names, because of their use in ancient legends or holy books. Troy, for instance.

The lyrics you quote are taken from the Bible Rivers of Babylon Babylon is a real place, and the Jews really were there, but that has been reinterpreted symbolically:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia contributor

Babylon represents the philosophical materialist's (see materialism) view of the world, an independent reality, not necessarily a specific historical place or time but a reference to cultures spawned out of materialist domination and conditioned mental slavery.

The rememberance of Zion is the emerging philosophical idealist's (see idealism) view of the world, a reality dependent on the observer, and represents the breaking of conditioned mental slavery and delving into the limitless possibilities that follow.

This thought is reflected in Buddhism, quantum physics and the movie "The Matrix".

But I think that you are asking if Paul's journey to Damascus was something other than a road trip?

Clivedurdle · 02-06-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

the first world map we know of was a diplomatic device, displayed in Miletus around 500BC in an attempt to persuade Greek states to take up arms against Asia. It showed a world dominated by a vast Europe, towering over diminuitive Asia and Africa. Speculative maps proliferated to judge from Herodotus' scorn for maps of the world drawn without any reason to guide them."

Pathfinders p29 Fernandez - Armesto.

Clivedurdle · 02-06-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

The irresistible inference is that early maps were probably not route finding devices. A clue to the earliest form of mapping is the kind most widely diffused among the world's cultures today. If cosmic diagrams - representions of the divine order in the universe - count as maps, they are preponderant in this category.

p19 above.

The places mentioned in the new testament are directly related to the footsteps of a god and his followers. They are therefore immediately extremely suspicious and should not be taken at face value.

Gamera · 02-07-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

A discussion. I do see huge symbolic, poetic, literary and theological reasons behind quoting these places. Has an interpretation mistake occured because we think now in terms of maps and places and geography?

Remember when the KJV was translated, at the beginnings of the discovery of America, during a time of huge improvements in map making.

Facinating question. But I think you may have it backward. There has been significant narrative theory studies on primal storytelling that shows the preeminence of place in narrative. In other word, places, physical locality, give rise to narrative, not the other way round. Primal narratives are "impossible" without physical location (and hence primal storytelling dies when tribal people are taken from their traditional lands and urbanized). It's not that places can't be used symbolically in narratives. But the research suggests that narrative discouse is the result of place to place existence and that stories are intimately related to existence in a real geography.

On the relationship of geography and narrative, see David Abrams, The Spell of the Sensuous (or via: amazon.co.uk).

On a more obvious level, more than a few scholars have noticed the relationship between desert landscapes and the Abrahamic religions of the book, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, all of which take narrative form.

Clivedurdle · 02-08-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Abrams then proceeds to show how, starting at the time of alphabetization, the western mind began to grow away from direct physical knowing of the world and toward abstract, conceptual representations. Our language became removed from nature, and helped us remove ourselves from nature.

As a counterpoint to the Western use of language, Abrams then goes on to show how indigenous peoples use language as a way to connect with the body and the physical realm. In these oral cultures language "is experienced not as the exclusive property of humankind, but as a property of the sensuous life-world." In other words, the world--the animals, plants, stones, wind--speaks a language that most of us can no longer hear. Abrams explores indigenous oral poetry and stories to illustrate this entirely other way of experiencing language.

So a god, apart from the world, supernatural, may be a result of the invention of the alphabet?

02-06-2007, 08:14 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	A theology of place Some places have obvious theological meanings - Rome (whore of Babylon, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Egypt. What of others - Damascus, Galilee, Capernaum. Assuming gnostics with hidden knowledge and stuff for the initiates to learn, might there be hidden meanings behind the choice of places? What of Paul's letters? Should we assume any geographical facts behind the place dropping?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-06-2007, 01:28 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There was a long article on Peter Kirby's christianorigins.com site ("Qumran and Early Christianity") that argued that Damascus was a standin for Qumran, which was a holy city for the Essenes. It is now increasingly clear that Qumran was a pottery factory, but it seems that Damascus might very well be a symbolic reference to some holy place, especially in Paul's letters. I keep reading that Galilee is the land of the gentiles, and this has some meaning. But I'm not sure what you're asking for. Speculation? References?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.