Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-23-2006, 11:26 PM

This thread is wandering off the topics for this forum. I will entertain suggestions for splitting off parts for more appropriate fora.

Toto

pharoah · 10-23-2006, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

If, in a world, it is not your job to judge others (and presumably not anyone else either) then is it possible for a person to do wrong in such a world?

Doesn't Jesus himself says in your Good Book to judge not that you be not judged? :huh:

Quote:

If it were possible for a person to do wrong in such a world, could anyone do anything about it without having to judge the person?

Isn't that one of the wonderful benefits of absolute morality? You don't need to "do anything about it", the Absolute Moral Judge in the sky will one day square all accounts. Didn't he say vengeance is mine, I will repay?

pharoah · 10-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

The Law provided by God says that homosexuality is punishable by death. Consequently, a person who does this will be judged by God and excluded from heaven. The person will be put to “death” or excluded from heaven when they die. All sin is ultimately punishable by death.

If a country were to determine that it would serve God, then it would have a human law that said homosexuality was wrong and those caught participating in it would be given the death penalty. The purpose of the human law would be to draw people’s attention to God’s Law so that people would associate death under the human law with death under God’s Law – and final judgment.

If a country determined that it would not serve God, then the human law would be wrong and those who refused to teach people that homosexuality is wrong would be accountable for doing so. The people who believed the rulers and participated in homosexuality would be judged for those acts even though they may be unaware of God’s Law.

Disobedient Children

Exodus 21:15
And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

Exodus 21:17
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Do you think that a country can best serve God by killing disobedient and violent children Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Slave Traders

Exodus 21:16
And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

Do you think that slave trading should be punishable by death Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Beastiality

Exodus 22:19
Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:15
And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

Leviticus 20:16
And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Do you think that beastiality deserves the death penalty Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Breaking the Sabbath

Exodus 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Do you do any work on the Sabbath Rhutchin? If so, why shuldn't YOU be put to death? If not, do you think that other Sabbath-breakers should be executed?

Idolatry

Leviticus 20:2
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Do you think worshippers from rival religions should be executed Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Adultery

Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:11
And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:12
And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

Do you think that adulterers should be executed Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Witchcraft

Leviticus 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Do you think that a country can best serve God by killing all witches, wizards, magicians, etc. Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Blasphemy

Leviticus 24:16
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

False Prophets

Deuteronomy 13:5
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Do you think that blasphemers and false prophets should be executed Rhutchin? If not, why not?

rhutchin · 10-24-2006, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

rhutchin
If, in a world, it is not your job to judge others (and presumably not anyone else either) then is it possible for a person to do wrong in such a world?

pharoah
Doesn't Jesus himself says in your Good Book to judge not that you be not judged? :huh:

Yes, He does. Don't you think there is a lot of common sense in that statement? A person should not judge others if he does not want to be judged by others. A lot of people use this to their advantage. They proudly say that they will not judge the homosexual for their fornication bcause they do not want to be judged for their heterosexual fornication. The person who is sleeping with a different girl every night doesn't want to judge another person's sexual activities less he come under judgment himself.

However, should we not judge those who steal for fear that we will be judged if we steal? The solution might be for a person to refrain from stealing if he judges others who steal. Or to refrain from sexual immorality if he will judge others for their sexual immorality. There is a lot of wisdom in that which Jesus said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

rhutchin
If it were possible for a person to do wrong in such a world, could anyone do anything about it without having to judge the person?

pharoah
Isn't that one of the wonderful benefits of absolute morality? You don't need to "do anything about it", the Absolute Moral Judge in the sky will one day square all accounts. Didn't he say vengeance is mine, I will repay?

That is true. Consequently, we see the role of the church is not to take revenge (that responsibility is given to the governing authorities) but to prepare people to stand before God. The actions of the governing authorities should also prepare people to stand before God. The judgements and punishments handed out by the governing authorities should parallel those that God will hand out.

rhutchin · 10-24-2006, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

rhutchin
The Law provided by God says that homosexuality is punishable by death. Consequently, a person who does this will be judged by God and excluded from heaven. The person will be put to “death” or excluded from heaven when they die. All sin is ultimately punishable by death.

If a country were to determine that it would serve God, then it would have a human law that said homosexuality was wrong and those caught participating in it would be given the death penalty. The purpose of the human law would be to draw people’s attention to God’s Law so that people would associate death under the human law with death under God’s Law – and final judgment.

If a country determined that it would not serve God, then the human law would be wrong and those who refused to teach people that homosexuality is wrong would be accountable for doing so. The people who believed the rulers and participated in homosexuality would be judged for those acts even though they may be unaware of God’s Law.

pharoah

Disobedient Children

Exodus 21:15
And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

Exodus 21:17
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Do you think that a country can best serve God by killing disobedient and violent children Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Slave Traders

Exodus 21:16
And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

Do you think that slave trading should be punishable by death Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Beastiality

Exodus 22:19
Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:15
And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

Leviticus 20:16
And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Do you think that beastiality deserves the death penalty Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Breaking the Sabbath

Exodus 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Do you do any work on the Sabbath Rhutchin? If so, why shuldn't YOU be put to death? If not, do you think that other Sabbath-breakers should be executed?

Idolatry

Leviticus 20:2
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Do you think worshippers from rival religions should be executed Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Adultery

Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:11
And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:12
And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

Do you think that adulterers should be executed Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Witchcraft

Leviticus 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Do you think that a country can best serve God by killing all witches, wizards, magicians, etc. Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Blasphemy

Leviticus 24:16
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

False Prophets

Deuteronomy 13:5
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Do you think that blasphemers and false prophets should be executed Rhutchin? If not, why not?

Yes to all the above. Is not God telling us that such people will not be allowed into heaven? Why should we deceive people to make them think that such things are of no consequence?

Nonetheless, we would not want to leave out the rest of the equation would we? A person who repents of his evil and does that which is right is to be forgiven is he not?

Does a disobedient child who refuses to stop abusing his parents after being told to do so deserve to live? Do you think it should be done differently? What would you do?

The Evil One · 10-24-2006, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Yes to all of the above

Congratulations on a succinct and clear answer, rhutchin. However, you might want to look again at the question about the Sabbath. The "yes" answer to that one is not directly parallel to the "yes" answer to the other questions.

rhutchin · 10-24-2006, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seebs

rhutchin
If, in a world, it is not your job to judge others (and presumably not anyone else either) then is it possible for a person to do wrong in such a world?

seebs
Sure.

Because "anyone else" might refer to "us fallible mortals".

There's a book I like to recommend to people which has some charming little stories in it, many of which have morals. For instance, in one of them, there's a story about a man who sows wheat in a field, but another plant, called "tares", is also sown in the same field. The plants look similar at first, so instead of having people uproot all the tares and risk damaging the wheat, he has them wait until the plants are full-grown and then separate them out.

I feel this might have some applicability.

I like the story.

So, if someone breaks into your house and rapes your wife and daughter, would you judge them and say that they have done wrong? Or, would you say that it is not your place to judge such a person?

Quote:

Originally Posted by seebs

rhutchin
If it were possible for a person to do wrong in such a world, could anyone do anything about it without having to judge the person?

seebs
You might want to distinguish between "wrong" and "harmful or disruptive to others". I am fairly solidly convinced that it is morally wrong to hope that others will suffer, but I see no reason to "do anything about it". On the other hand, there may be some actions, the morality of which is very hard to figure out, which it is worth taking steps to prevent because of their disruptive effects.

To give relevant examples, I have no reason to know or care whether or not it is "wrong" for someone somewhere to have premarital sex. Not my problem. It is logically impossible for me to have premarital sex, so I have no reason to form an opinion on the question. It's none of my business.

When we are discussing a moral question, it is crucial to understand that the person whose morality concerns you is you. You do not need to know whether my choices are moral or not. You haven't got enough information to reach an informed conclusion on the issue in any event.

It is not a flaw in a moral system to observe that it only lets you judge your own actions. We don't need to make moral judgements about other people; their moral choices are up to them.

Speaking of that book I was mentioning, there's a wonderful example about removing the beam from your own eye before trying to remove a mote from someone else's. This, I think, is also relevant. I once saw a very funny billboard that said "Four out of five divorced Baptists believe gays are destroying marriage." Thinking about it, I suspect that I could quite productively spend the remainder of my natural life attempting to improve my own moral choices, and still have work left to do. This strikes me as perhaps a better choice than obsessing over other peoples' wee-wees.

People who engage in sin will often try to put on a cloak of religion to cover their evil. Adulterers and those who play with interns are famous for it.

Otherwise, I have no problem with your argument. The only issue seems to be to determine what actions can be judged and what should not be. My solution is straightforward. If the action is such that it will result in a person being refused entry into heaven, we should judge it to be wrong. If not, we can ignore it.

rhutchin · 10-24-2006, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evil One

Congratulations on a succinct and clear answer, rhutchin. However, you might want to look again at the question about the Sabbath. The "yes" answer to that one is not directly parallel to the "yes" answer to the other questions.

Sounds interesting. How about starting a new thread and explaining what the sabbath is (reference to both OT and NT passages would be needed to do this). Are you able to do it, or do you tend to be limited to cherry-picking verses to spout things foreign to you.

rhutchin · 10-24-2006, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

As usual, you do not have any intelligent arguments to make whatsoever. You claim that homosexuality is wrong. Where is your evidence? If your evidence is the Bible, what is the Bible? Who decided which writings would be included in the Bible? What evidence do you have that the writers always spoke for God and not for themselves?...

My presupposition is that God is the author of the Bible having inspired men to write those things He wanted conveyed to His creation. That presupposition allows me to frame intelligent and logical arguments. I have no problem if you disagree with those presuppositions and believe that they are false. I can still make arguments as to that which the Bible says based on that presupposition. After we determine what the Bible says, you are free to believe it or not. My claim, in this instance, is that the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong (as it does for many other sexual actitivites) and that those who participate in such things will be denied entry into heaven.

You can always start a new thread to look at those presuppositions if you want. Given that you are such a loving person, even if by your own declaration, I see no reason for you misuse a thread for your own selfish purposes. So, stick with the subject matter of the thread.

djrafikie · 10-24-2006, 04:44 AM

*sigh*

I sleep with other women rhutchin, do you think I should be stoned to death?
What about my little girl?

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10-23-2006, 11:26 PM	#101
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This thread is wandering off the topics for this forum. I will entertain suggestions for splitting off parts for more appropriate fora. Toto

10-24-2006, 04:44 AM	#110
djrafikie Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: u.k, back of beyond, we have scones and cream teas Posts: 2,534	sigh I sleep with other women rhutchin, do you think I should be stoned to death? What about my little girl?

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