Camio

In Patrick Boistier's "Jesus, anatomy of a myth" (only available in French I am afraid), I found the following theory summarized by the author as such:

"The Essenes [are] a fictive community created between the Second and Sixth century through interpolation or sophistication of Philo's, Josephus' and Pliny's texts, with the sole view to simulating the roots of Roman Christianity in traditional Judaism of the first century"

Since everyone cherishes original version here I guess, the French text :

"la secte des Esseniens - secte fictive, creee entre le II° et le VI° siecle, par interpolation ou sophistication des textes de Philon d'Alexandrie, de Flavius Josephe et de Pline l'Ancien, dans le seul but de simuler l'enracinement du Christianisme romain dans le Judaisme traditionnel du I° siecle".

Of course Boistier provides something like 40 pages to make his case, but I won't bother people here with it if this is a settled question.

So, is the existence of the Essenes beyond any reasonable doubt?

Thanks,

C.

mountainman

IMO, probably, as the description given by those patristic writers
is consistent with a bunch of pythagoreans (and/or even buddhists)
living, as they did, on the fringes of society.

The question that needs to be answered beyond reasonable doubt
is whether there were in fact any "tribe of christians" on the planet
before the dawn of the 4th century.



Pete Brown

Huon

Camio, bienvenue !

You could google "qumran" and find information about the Essenes. The problem with Philo and Josephus is that they knew the Essenes, were not afraid of them, and tried to explain their beliefs in a form which could be understood by Greek and Roman people.

On another side, I have a book by Prosper Alfaric, A l'école de la raison (School of Reason), published by Union Rationaliste. In this rather old book, later than 1947, Alfaric does mention possible Essenian roots for Christianism. However, he does not equate Essenism and paleo-Christianism.

I am afraid that Patrick Boistier is trying to make himself a fool, with some success.

Solo

Est-ce que ce M.Boistier rèclame au sérieux que les intellectuels Chrétien de cet époque l�* dissimulaient, que le Jésus aurait eté enraciné dans l’histoire sectarien judaic du 1er siècle ? Si c’est le cas, je vous guarantie que la croyance de Pierre Plantard de Saint-Clair qu’il aurait descendu directement de Jésus et Marie de Magdala (dont sort les bêtises du Code da Vinci,) , est moins bizzare.

Jiri Severa

Camio

Quite right. Though it is difficult to find precise references to the “controversy” I raised here, allowing that there is even one... I hoped someone could possibly indicate me some accurate resources on this very subject.

The amount of interpolations or sophistication (as he put it) that is required for his thesis to hold water is for sure a strong indication in this direction…


Thanks for your effort in French, Solo. Nevertheless, I feel like translating your message so that everyone on this board can easily follow the discussion.

Actually Boistier asserts that the Roman Church, between the 2° and 6° century, felt the need to root their savior JC in a Jewish background, hence the invention of the Essenes:

Why so? Because “Christus had been substituted to Chrestos”, the supreme being of the original Chrestians (sic) according to Boistier, to make the hellenistic roots of Christianism disappear.

Solo

Thanks, for your translation, Camio. If I may be permitted to translate myself then this is what I actually meant to say: Does M. Boistier seriously assert that Christian scholars of the time tried to pretend Jesus was rooted in the sectarian Judaic history of the first century ?

I hope the absurdity of such an anachronism is self-evident to anyone who has even moderate knowledge of the issues involved.

Jiri

Chris Weimer

The Essenes as entirely interpolated? Not a chance. There's some hypothesis that Philo's therapeutai were fictional, but nothing on such a large scale as interpolated Essenes. Moreover, where do we see church fathers equating Jesus with Essenism?

Mat Wilder

What is more likely is that early Christianity co-opted certain Essene practices/messages (i.e. John the Baptist might have been an Essene).

Also, if the Essenes are fictitious, who lived at Qumran and collected the 900 scrolls found there?

Camio

Thank you for this clearcut response!

A typical example of the "conspirationist" approach of Mr. Boistier regarding this question:

Of course, he gives a few hints to show interpolation here or there in the Josephan texts dealing with the Essenes, but I am not knowledgeable enough on this matter to assess their relevance.

Nowhere it seems indeed. I re-read Boistier's whole chapter on the Essenes, and I found him quite confused. A lot of dot-connecting actually.

Camio

Boistier's response: