Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stormy · 09-26-2003, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nowhere357
I think the point is that if God gave you more than enough, clearly there are many people, regardless of belief structure, who got a raw deal. If your good fortune is due to God, then isn't all the misfortune also due to God?

No, I do not think you understand. It is at what value you place your "deal" as to wether it is good. I have not had an easy life.
Still, every minute has either been an enjoyment or a learning experience. It is really great when the two are combined as it is when speaking with the people on this forum.

Stormy · 09-26-2003, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by riverduck2003
Christians like the atheist's mob encompass a huge spectrum. If you are looking for a Christian who believes the big bang could have happened, i am here.

But it did not happen outside of God. Is that how you feel too?

Stormy · 09-26-2003, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nowhere357
If a busload of kids crashes and burns and only one kid lives through it, what reason is there to assume that was due to anything other than random chance as opposed to divine intervention?

And if god micromanages our misfortunes, what reason is there to assume he is benevolent?

And if God does not micromanage our misfortunes, what reason is there to assume he micromanages our fortunes?
______________

A friend once traveled across the country to visit his old girlfriend. It rained for 'days', but stopped even as he arrived at her house. He was absolutely sure that God stopped the rain as a sign that he should hook back up with her.

Such self-centered arrogance combined with such a lack of basic critical thinking has annoyed me ever since.

I am not, btw, accusing you of those things.

I do believe, in fact I know, that there are times when God does send angels to change a course... and I also adamantly believe in the power of prayer.

But God has placed us where our frail bodies are exposed to harm, and accidental injury and death is always possible. Makes me extra glad that I have a soul. When one door closes another opens.

Nowhere357 · 09-26-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Stormy
No, I do not think you understand. It is at what value you place your "deal" as to wether it is good. I have not had an easy life.

It sounds like you're saying that if life gives you a lemon, make lemonade. I agree.

But you had made the comment that "God has given me more than enough... much, much more."
That seems to directly imply that you have received beneficial divine interference. I'm wondering how you can justify that opinion.

Quote:

But it did not happen outside of God.

How do you justify the opinion that the big bang could not have occured outside of God? It sounds like you are saying that God is the universe.

Quote:

I do believe, in fact I know, that there are times when God does send angels to change a course... and I also adamantly believe in the power of prayer.

I also believe in the power of prayer. I also understand that intercessory prayer is the least effective of all the varieties.

It's not good that you claim "God does send angels" to be a fact. It is not. Whatever experiences have led you to that conclusion, I think if we accept the experiences, we still must question the interpretation of those experiences.

By claiming a non-fact to be a fact, you undermine your credibility. Notice that I don't claim it to be a fact that God does not send angels; I claim it to be a fact that it is not known to be a fact that God sends angels.

Facts can be proven, is the important point I think. Do you claim you can prove that God sends angels?

Quote:

But God has placed us where our frail bodies are exposed to harm, and accidental injury and death is always possible. Makes me extra glad that I have a soul. When one door closes another opens.

What reason do you have for elevating your "accidental" good fortunes, to the realm of divine intervention? I would say that if you managed to turn lemons into lemonade, the kudos belong to you.

Perhaps you weren't intending to claim that God has personally intervened in your behalf, but I'm not sure.

Here are the questions again:

If a busload of kids crashes and burns and only one kid lives through it, what reason is there to assume that was due to anything other than random chance as opposed to divine intervention?

And if god micromanages our misfortunes, what reason is there to assume he is benevolent?

And if God does not micromanage our misfortunes, what reason is there to assume he micromanages our fortunes?

Viti · 09-26-2003, 10:35 AM

Gods blessings and trials make no sense and none of my Christian friends can explain why bad things happen to Christians and good things happen to non-Christians and why exactly, it all comes out in the wash as totally random.

livius drusus · 09-26-2003, 10:42 AM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Madkins007
Misfortune due to God? Absolutely! Any Christian knows this, and we (at least trying to be) honest Christians acknowledge it. One only has to look at poor Job to see that God sometimes does pretty rotten things even to people He says He loves!

Indeed. God was remarkably inconsistent with his favors. Job was obedient and he got the shaft. Sarah laughed at God and she got, well, the shaft too, but in a good way. All of God's beloved had their ups and downs. Much like God's non-beloved. And much like it would be if there were no God.

Welcome to IIDB, Madkins007. Please feel free to stop by The Lounge and introduce yourself should you be so inclined.

Stormy · 09-26-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nowhere357
It sounds like you're saying that if life gives you a lemon, make lemonade. I agree.

But you had made the comment that "God has given me more than enough... much, much more."
That seems to directly imply that you have received beneficial divine interference. I'm wondering how you can justify that opinion.

How do you justify the opinion that the big bang could not have occured outside of God? It sounds like you are saying that God is the universe.

I also believe in the power of prayer. I also understand that intercessory prayer is the least effective of all the varieties.

It's not good that you claim "God does send angels" to be a fact. It is not. Whatever experiences have led you to that conclusion, I think if we accept the experiences, we still must question the interpretation of those experiences.

By claiming a non-fact to be a fact, you undermine your credibility. Notice that I don't claim it to be a fact that God does not send angels; I claim it to be a fact that it is not known to be a fact that God sends angels.

Facts can be proven, is the important point I think. Do you claim you can prove that God sends angels?

What reason do you have for elevating your "accidental" good fortunes, to the realm of divine intervention? I would say that if you managed to turn lemons into lemonade, the kudos belong to you.

Perhaps you weren't intending to claim that God has personally intervened in your behalf, but I'm not sure.

Here are the questions again:

If a busload of kids crashes and burns and only one kid lives through it, what reason is there to assume that was due to anything other than random chance as opposed to divine intervention?

And if god micromanages our misfortunes, what reason is there to assume he is benevolent?

And if God does not micromanage our misfortunes, what reason is there to assume he micromanages our fortunes?

Wow!!! You sure have a lot of questions. Maybe someday I will try to answer a few. I stand by totally what I say. I do not lie or stretch the truth. I also do not debate. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe about me, or anything else including God. I will also use my right to know that you are wrong.

Nowhere357 · 09-26-2003, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stormy
Wow!!! You sure have a lot of questions. Maybe someday I will try to answer a few. I stand by totally what I say. I do not lie or stretch the truth. I also do not debate. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe about me, or anything else including God.

If you claim your opinions to be fact, yet won't discuss your opinions, what reason is there to for others to give value to your opinions?

Whoops, that was another question. Given that you won't discuss, let me try again with the only recourse left:

You claim your opinions to be fact, yet won't discuss them, therefore there is no reason for others to give value to your opinions.

Also, I claim you do stretch the truth, since you claim it to be a FACT that God sends angels to intervene on the mortal plane. This casts doubt on all of your opinions. So there is NO reason to give value to your opinions, and there IS reason to de-value your opinions.

You see, if you aren't interested in debate, you should probably consider not posting your opinions in a debate forum.

Quote:

I will also use my right to know that you are wrong.

Sorry, that is nothing more than a random prejudicial valueless statement.

King Rat · 09-26-2003, 11:44 AM

Quote:

I will also use my right to know that you are wrong.

I'm rubber and you're glue.

Carrie · 09-26-2003, 12:10 PM

What the hell ever happened to Maggus? I miss that dude.

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09-26-2003, 10:35 AM	#15
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Gods blessings and trials make no sense and none of my Christian friends can explain why bad things happen to Christians and good things happen to non-Christians and why exactly, it all comes out in the wash as totally random.

09-26-2003, 12:10 PM	#20
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	What the hell ever happened to Maggus? I miss that dude.

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