archibald

Not forgetting that there is a difference between 'getting killed' and 'being crucified'.

When 'Paul' says something is a stumbling block, might 'he' mean the latter, especially?

Just a thought.

I do tend to accept that there is evidence that at least some Jews already had ideas about a dying messiah before Jesus.

gurugeorge

Carrier talks about that - in fact, it seems that the general idea at the time amongst ordinary Jews (not those with a stake in the system obviously) would have been that the more humiliating the death suffered by the "just man", the more their anger would be directed against the authorities, and the more the just man's righteousness would shine.

As Carrier points out, what he's talking about there could fit with an HJ or an MJ position, but I like the way it would fit with my particular MJ theory (but I won't lead the thread astray with that ).

Of particular note, I think, is Carrier's discussion of the "Joshua Messiah"s (i.e. Jesus Christs) in Josephus (i.e. revolutionaries/crackpots mimicking various aspects of the OT Jesus' (i.e. Joshua's) triumphs and gathering people to them, in a way that the Roman authorities understood as provocative).

I've often thought that if there was a "historical Jesus", surely he's just one of those agitators mentioned by Josephus?

IOW, if the TF is bogus, that only leaves whatever is attested in Josephus as providing any kind of decent triangulation for a human being "Joshua Messiah" candidate. Well, if the "HJ" was a failed revolutionary, why can't he just have been one of those failed revolutionaries?

Then, look in the cult texts, and see if there are any little bits of human-sounding biography that might fit with the Josephus biographies.

More mileage in that than in anything else in the HJ line, IMHO.

aa5874

You should know that it is NOT necessary to be an expert to present evidence.

In both gMatthew and gMark the character called Jesus Christ was UNKNOWN to the Jews as a Messiah.

In fact, in gMatthew, the author claimed Herod KILLED all the children 2 years and younger to eliminate the one who was to be born "King of the Jews".

Based on the Jesus stories in gMatthew and gMark Jesus would be like a John the baptist or some one of the prophets.

Except for the outrageous implausible miracles which did not happen the Jesus of gMark and gMatthew simply lived and died in disgrace as a deceiver and a blasphemer.