Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gurugeorge · 10-08-2011, 07:29 AM

Superb blog post from Richard Carrier with some more preliminary investigations relevant to his forthcoming Jesus book. (Via the equally superb Vridar blog.)

He analyzes various aspects of the question of what Jews expected of the Messiah, and specifically, whether the idea of a dying Messiah was part of the idea.

Sample of the goodness:-

Quote:

A fragmentary pesher among the Dead Sea Scrolls explicitly identifies the servant of Isaiah 52-53 with the messiah of Daniel 9. This decisively confirms that this specific equation had already been made by pre-Christian Jews, as it exists not just in a pre-Christian text, but in this case a pre-Christian manuscript. The passage in question is in 11QMelch ii.18 (aka 11Q13). A pesher is an interpretive commentary on the OT that operates on the assumption that the OT text has hidden, second-level meanings (a view Christians shared, e.g. Rom. 16:25-26). Thus some pre-Christian Jews were already finding hidden "secrets" in the OT that basically are the Christian gospel: that Isaiah 52-53 is about the messiah whom Daniel 9 predicted will be killed (this same pesher also identifies Isaiah 61 as being about this same messiah, thus proving again that the Christians did not come to this conclusion post hoc either). See my analysis in NIF for why this pretty much gives away the game.

aa5874 · 10-08-2011, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

Superb blog post from Richard Carrier with some more preliminary investigations relevant to his forthcoming Jesus book. (Via the equally superb Vridar blog.)

He analyzes various aspects of the question of what Jews expected of the Messiah, and specifically, whether the idea of a dying Messiah was part of the idea....

I hope you realize that in the article that Richard Carrier destroys Doherty. The Jews EXPECTED a physical actual Messiah.

But, Richard Carrier also misses the MOST FUNDAMENTAL clue in the Synoptics.

In the Synoptics Jesus Christ was NOT known as a Messiah at all by the JEWS during his supposed life on earth.

This is ALWAYS MISSED even by Scholars.

MARK 8

Quote:

27 And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?

28 And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias, and others, One of the prophets.

This is MOST SIGNIFICANT.

In the Synoptics, Jesus the very Ghost Child, was just PERCEIVED to be an ORDINARY JEW, like John the Baptist or one of the prophets.

So during the supposed ENTIRE LIFE of Jesus on earth he was NOT considered an EXTRA-ORDINARY Jew or the expected Messiah.

NOTHING CHANGED in JUDEA at all when the Synoptic Jesus was on EARTH. Even based on Josephus, there many MIRACLE workers and so-called prophets in Judea in the 1st century.

The JEWS did NOT know of any Messiah from Nazareth in the Synoptics. There was ALREADY another MESSIAH.

And to PROVE my point, please Continue. Jesus himself NEVER even told the disciples he was a Messiah BEFORE Peter did so.

MARK 8

Quote:

29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Peter answereth....... Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

It is EXTREMELY CRITICAL that we UNDERSTAND the Synoptic Jesus.

The Synoptic Jesus supposedly came to earth and left WITHOUT the JEWS suspecting that he was the MESSIAH and the Synoptic Jesus made SURE the JEWS did NOT recognise him as a MESSIAH until he made it PUBLIC in the trial with the Sanhedrin and was REJECTED and Crucified.

The Synoptic Jesus, the described Ghost Child, HAD NO MORE INFLUENCE on the JEWS than John the Baptist or one of the Prophets.

And this is further shown in the same gMark

Mr 9:38 -

Quote:

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us....

In the time of the Synoptic Jesus, according to gMark, there was at least ONE person claiming to be the MESSIAH and performing Miracles.

The SYNOPTIC Jesus story MUST be UNDERSTOOD. There was a MESSIAH in the time of Jesus.

Jesus Christ was NOT known as a Messiah, NOT known as a Savior, Not known as a Heavenly character by the JEWS.

There was NO NEW religion promoted by the Synoptic Jesus.

Jesus Christ did NOT TELL JEWS he was to be SACRIFICED for their Sins.

When The Synoptic Jesus, the described Ghost Child, was on earth, there was ALREADY at least ONE person who CLAIMED to be the MESSIAH.

Jesus Christ as a DYING RISING SAVIOR and MESSIAH is AFTER the Synoptics story.

stephan huller · 10-08-2011, 10:26 AM

I fail to see what is so exciting about this preview. I especially mystified how this is connected to the gospel

GakuseiDon · 10-08-2011, 10:28 AM

What is superb about his blog post? Carrier is a smart guy, but one criticism that is made about him is that he argues against the weakest point in an argument or even a strawman version of it instead of building the strongest case and then arguing against that. Case in point:

Quote:

It is frequently claimed, even by experts in the field, that no Jews expected their messiah to be killed, that all of them expected a militarily triumphant übermensch. And therefore Christianity went totally off-book when it came up with the idea that their "failed" messiah was the "real" messiah. But this is actually demonstrably false. Some Jews did expect a dying messiah.

Notice that Carrier associates "dying messiah" with "failed messiah". The Messiah was supposed to be a man, so of course he can die. The idea of martyrdom existed back then; so why couldn't a warrior Messiah be killed?

And who are the experts he is talking about? He doesn't quote anyone.

The function of the Messiah was to bring about the Messianic Age. As Carrier himself puts it in his blog (my emphasis):

Quote:

The Talmud explicitly assumes Isaiah 53 is about the messiah, and that the messiah was expected to endure great suffering before his triumph

Here is NT Wright on the topic (or via: amazon.co.uk) (my emphasis):

In so far as we can generalize about such complex things, three interrelated themes emerge, stressed variously in different sources: the Messiah was supposed to win the decisive victory over the pagans, to rebuild or cleanse the Temple, and in some way or other to bring true, god-given justice and peace to the whole world...

Jewish beliefs about a coming Messiah, and about the deeds such a figure would be expected to accomplish, came in various shapes and sizes, but they did not include a shameful death which left the Roman empire celebrating its usual victory.

Here is Bart Ehrman on the topic (or via: amazon.co.uk):

To call Jesus the messiah was for most Jews completely ludricrous. Jesus was not the powerful leader of the Jews. He was a weak and powerless nobody--executed in the most humiliating and painful way devised by the Romans, the ones with the real power.

Has anyone argued that BECAUSE the Messiah died or was killed, THEREFORE he wasn't the Messiah? No. He is a "failed Messiah" if the Messianic Age doesn't start after his death. That blog post is yet another in a long line of strange arguments by Carrier. Can anyone say what the point of his blog post is?

stephan huller · 10-09-2011, 11:52 AM

One correction of Bart Ehrman:

Quote:

To call Jesus the messiah was for most Jews completely ludricrous

should read:

Quote:

To call Jesus the messiah is for most Jews completely ludricrous

unless of course one can argue that relegating Jesus to the lowest bowels of hell writhing in hot excrement is construed as yet another confirmation of 'OT prophesy.'

mountainman · 10-09-2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

That blog post is yet another in a long line of strange arguments by Carrier. Can anyone say what the point of his blog post is?

Hey GDon,

The point of the blog appears to be clearly stated in the second paragraph ...

Quote:

Indeed, I have heard one particular claim several times recently in conversations with Jesus scholars that simply isn't true.

It is frequently claimed, even by experts in the field, that no Jews expected their messiah to be killed, that all of them expected a militarily triumphant übermensch. And therefore Christianity went totally off-book when it came up with the idea that their "failed" messiah was the "real" messiah. But this is actually demonstrably false. Some Jews did expect a dying messiah.

The blog seems to confine itself to this specific issue.

One of the more recent comments and responses confirms this IMO:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrier

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will A

.. Richard - your article here seems to be ambiguous about how much of Jesus was invented - are you now holding to the Doherty mythicist position, or have you rather gone back to your earlier position with a probable Jesus whose followers had overactive imaginations?

This blog post takes no position on that and makes no argument either way. It is solely about this one fact, which can fit both mythicist and historicist hypotheses of the origins of Christianity. Indeed, in isolation, one could use what I establish here to argue in favor of historicity, since the other Jesus Christs were historical (Jesus is then just another historical figure posing as the Joshuan Messiah and trying to get himself killed).

But one cannot argue from isolated items of evidence. A conclusion must come from a survey of all the evidence together

I like the substance of that last sentence.

Best wishes

Pete

GakuseiDon · 10-10-2011, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

That blog post is yet another in a long line of strange arguments by Carrier. Can anyone say what the point of his blog post is?

Hey GDon,

The point of the blog appears to be clearly stated in the second paragraph ...

Quote:

Indeed, I have heard one particular claim several times recently in conversations with Jesus scholars that simply isn't true.

It is frequently claimed, even by experts in the field, that no Jews expected their messiah to be killed, that all of them expected a militarily triumphant übermensch. And therefore Christianity went totally off-book when it came up with the idea that their "failed" messiah was the "real" messiah. But this is actually demonstrably false. Some Jews did expect a dying messiah.

The blog seems to confine itself to this specific issue.

Yes, but I've never read that a dying messiah in itself was an issue. Jews thought that the Messiah would herald in the Messianic Age. Did anyone think that the Messiah would come and go and nothing would change? Nope. There is nothing in early literature that describes the death of Christ in itself as an issue, only that the world carried on regardless. Carrier is addressing a strawman AFAICS.

A far more relevant argument would be to show that the Jews thought that the Messiah would die and nothing would change.

Iskander · 10-10-2011, 10:31 AM

Why a dying messiah should be a subject of any interest to those who deny the humanity of Jesus is a real mystery.

Why not the dying Constantine?

A retelling of The Goose That Laid the Golden Eggs is what deniers should be writing about.

Deniers are intellectual parasites feeding on Christian history and literature.

Toto · 10-10-2011, 10:36 AM

Carrier appears to be addressing actual arguments that he has heard, which are that the Jewish concept of Messiah-ness was incompatible with someone who died before achieving his goals..

Toto · 10-10-2011, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Why a dying messiah should be a subject of any interest to those who deny the humanity of Jesus is a real mystery.

Why not the dying Constantine?

A retelling of The Goose That Laid the Golden Eggs is what deniers should be writing about.

Deniers are intellectual parasites feeding on Christian history and literature.

Iskander: do you have anything to say other than insulting other posters? Do you not understand the argument?

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10-08-2011, 10:26 AM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I fail to see what is so exciting about this preview. I especially mystified how this is connected to the gospel

10-10-2011, 10:31 AM	#8
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	Why a dying messiah should be a subject of any interest to those who deny the humanity of Jesus is a real mystery. Why not the dying Constantine? A retelling of The Goose That Laid the Golden Eggs is what deniers should be writing about. Deniers are intellectual parasites feeding on Christian history and literature.

10-10-2011, 10:36 AM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Carrier appears to be addressing actual arguments that he has heard, which are that the Jewish concept of Messiah-ness was incompatible with someone who died before achieving his goals..

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