Magus55

Well of course we wouldn't worship Him if he were human - humans are creations, and don't possess the knowledge or nature to be capable of doing or justifying their actions the way God does.

Such a poor understanding of Hell and God. God did not create Hell for the purpose of torturing humans. God absolutely does not want anyone to go there. Hell was not created for humanity in the first place.

God is sovereign over all creation, including the devil. If the devil can bring God glory, and aid Him in fullfilling His plan, why shouldn't He use him?

This concept is done on Earth too. Very often,a district attorney will cut a deal, or offer a criminal something, in exhange for their testimony or information in another case. The district attorney uses an evil source, to their benefit, to get another important thing accomplished.

When God has ultimate authority over everything, why can't He exercise His sovereignty, and use Satan to do something for Him, that will ultimately benefit God and fullfill His goal and plans?

God isn't genocidal or sadistic. You're just looking at it from a human perspective. You seem to think that since God is love, that is all He should be. As though God should void every other aspect of His nature, to be loving. God is loving, but God is also Holy and Righteous. He will judge those who sin, whether He loves them or not. Remember, physical life is not the most important thing to God. Its such a minor part of His ultimate goal. He gave life, and He can take it away at His discretion.

Biff the unclean

So, fellow Atheists, what say from now on when a theists claims that their God who drowns everyone is the world isn't genocidal or sadistic because he has ultimate authority over everything that instead of repeating Might Makes Right for the ten thousandth time we now just call it "MMR"?

ComestibleVenom

The biggest contradiction is the fact that God made the world and saw that it was good and the merrily along to smite this and smite that because he is displeased.

I thought time meant nothing to God, who isn't an anthropomorophic projection of ourselves?

converted

Agreed. Newton was a genius and Einstein was also a genius, but Science and Technology continues to move on.

I think scientists are still working on the universal theory trying to tie all of the types of energy in the universe into one big model (something Einstein tried to prove), and we would understand the answer if we could just figure out where 2/3 of the energy or matter in the universe is stored. I think the term for that is "Dark Matter". Here is my theory: Eventually Scientists are going to discover that 2/3 of the energy in the universe is actually allocated to God & Heaven.

dantonac

That there is a justification for sending the serpent to decieve a newly formed couple so that they would sin (god is omniscient, remember?) seems illogical. What purpose or justification can be made for creating people god knew wouldn't hold up to the temptation (read trap) he was setting for them and when they predictably succumb to the temptation all of humanity is punished for it?

How does this square with "God is love"?

So it is an accident that humans will end up in hell? Have you ever read the 9th chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans?

Let's look briefy at it. 9For this is a word of promise: 'At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.' 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger.' 13Just as it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'"

Here we have God deciding to love one and hate the other. Not because of what they would grow up and do (see verse 11), but because it was what God wanted to do (again, see verse 11).

How does this square with "God is love"?

Later in this same chapter we see the example of 2 twins broadened to the entire world's population. You can read that for yourself, but let's take a look elsewhere to see God excercising his sovereignty in non loving ways:

"And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven," (Mark 4:11-12). (God doesn't want certain people who understand the truth because they might seek forgiveness.

How does this square with "God is love"?

"And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false," (2 Thess. 2:11). (As if withholding the truth isn't enough, God actually causes people to become deluded so they couldn't understand the truth even if they were accidently exposed to it).

How does this square with "God is love"?

"And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go," (Exodus 4:21).
"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires," (Rom. 9:18). (God hardens whomever he wants to, which inarguably(even though some try to argue the point) means "God hardens people's hearts, he sends deluding influences to people and he doesn't want some to "understand and return(repent) and be forgiven.)

How does this square with "God is love"?

Because the devil does evil things. If God is sovereign over all creation including the devil then ultimately what God allows Satan to do is the responsibility of God. If I create a robot and can shut it off with the press of a button am I responsible if I see this robot murdering people and elect to not turn it off because the robot is fulfilling my purpose? Should we send the robot to hell for it's actions and hold me blameless?

How would my choosing not to shut off the robot demonstrate love?

Yes, but the district attorney had no control over the actions of the criminal. For this analogy to hold water the DA would have to have known the criminal was going to commit crimes, have had the power to stop him, but didn't and is now making deals with him.

I am not arguing that God can't excercise his power in any way he chooses. Rather I am arguing that the ultimate contradiction in the bible is that God is loving because it contrasts so sharply with his inhumane treatment of his creation. Given the way this God excercises his power I wouldn't want to be a Christian even if I believed this god existed. I would have no reason to believe that even after I was saved and in heaven that I wouldn't be set up for some fall in order to serve this diety's twisted master plan.

That would be because I am a human. In human terms genocide means wiping an entire ethnic group off the planet. The God of the bible has done exactly that. So, in human terms, I as a human can show that this god is genocidal. If your counter argument is only that I am seeing things in human terms, I agree with you. What terms are you viewing it in?

I don't claim that the only aspect of God's nature should be love, rather I claim that the bible makes the claim "God is love". He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.1 john 4:8. This doesn't say God's only attribute is love, rather it says love itself is God. God is the personification of love. While physical life may not be all that important to your God, it ranks pretty high on the list of important things for all of his creation.

How does God's disregard for his creation's natural desire to survive and not be punished for eternity square with "God is love"?

A loving God would have created a being with freewill, but not tempted them in ways he knew they couldn't resist. A loving God would not punish billions of people for the actions of 2. A loving God would not "harden whom he will harden" or "send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false".

The ultimate contradiction in the bible is that "God is love". Even the bible proves that God is not love because the bible defines love:

Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking.
It is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails.
I Corinthians 13:4-8

Undeniably the God of the bible boasts, is proud, is rude, is 100% self seeking, is easily angered to the point of genocide, keeps a record of wrongs and sponsors evil via Satan.

Thus the the notion that God is love coupled with the biblical definition of love presents the ultimate contradiction in the bible.

converted

Understood. Good points.

As a scientist, my hypothesis on God and the spiritual world is as follows:
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God and spirits live in a different dimension which humans cannot currently see, touch, taste, or smell with their senses. When we are physically alive our soul / spirit can reside in our body. When we physically die, our spirit goes to the other dimension. Spirits/God can interact with our dimension, but we cannot physically detect or sense their dimension. We are physically bound by the laws of physics in this life. In the other dimension, our spirits and God do not have mass and therefore are not encumbered by energy and time. As such, God can go forward and backward in time and even though we have free will and can make decisions at any time based on our own free will in the Physical realm, God can actually go forward and backward in time and interject his will when he sees fit. How is that for a hypothesis?

Can I prove any of this with physical evidence? No. Do you have $500 billion and a team of scientists? Maybe some day the scientists working on string theory will actually find a way to peer into other dimensions and maybe when they look they will find God. Until those scientists find God or until God reappears to the world, I don't see how it can be proven to a skeptic / atheist. However, that still does not prove that atheists are correct. It simply indicates that we don't have a method of proving my hypothesis. Einstein had a theory that light would bend in a gravational field, but that could not be proven until 75+ years later.

I guess we will find out when each one of us dies. Either (a) the lights will go out and life will be over or (b) we will end up somewhere in front of God ready to explain how your life went. I am banking on (b). If I die first, I will try send a posting on this site from heaven...

Sven

But this also means that so-called "weak atheism" is justified.

Umm, it only took 3 (4?) years, not over 75. And Newton's theory also suggested that light would be bent by the sun - the only difference is that Relativity yielded an angle twice as large (which was confirmed 1919).

See http://abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/gmis9737.htm and http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s6-03/6-03.htm

Sven

Indeed. But there's still no reason why anybody should laugh at Einstein in 100 years.

Actually it is about 5% "normal" matter, 30% "dark matter" and 65% of the even more omnious "dark energy".

Sven

Yes, and you are just looking at "love" from a human perspective. The problem with your "argument", Magus, is obvious: god commiting genocide is a good thing - according to you, we simply don't understand it from our human perspective. But at the same time good being loving is also a good thing - although we can not understand it/god according to you.

Why is it that humans apparently are only able to understand the good things your god does from their human perspective, but not the bad things?

Asha'man

Actually, it’s not bad for total speculation. However, it appears to have nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. Your hypothesis could easily be filled by an entity named Zeus or Odin or Ra.

And that’s the whole problem. The difference between a hypothesis and a theory is that a theory is supported by evidence, and a theory allows you to make testable predictions. You have no evidence whatsoever for your idea, and no way to check to see if you are right. In the end, you have nothing but wishful thinking.

So, what you have is a belief that you admit is utterly unsupported by evidence. If you also hold to standard Christian beliefs, then you also believe that humans will go to hell for eternity if they do not also hold this same utterly unsupported belief. And, in classic Christian doublethink, this completely unjust setup is considered to be perfect justice, and was created by a benevolent entity?