Amaleq13

My, what a disingenuous recapitulation. It is certainly inaccurate to describe explicit depictions of Jesus speaking Aramaic as "allusion".

The authors of the Gospels explicitly depict Jesus speaking Aramaic in a text clearly written for a Greek-reading audience.

That this tells you nothing about what language the authors believed Jesus spoke says more about you than the evidence.

What is your source for the assertion that Greek was the lingua franca among the educated and that it was the lingua franca of Galilee? It is my understanding that Greek was the language of commerce while Aramaic was the common tongue of the people of Galilee and Latin the language of the educated.

Aramaic and Hebrew were the languages of the Jews. Latin and Greek were the languages of the Roman Empire. While it is entirely reasonable to suggest that Jesus spoke Greek to, for example, the Roman centurion, it makes little sense to suggest that he would choose Greek to speak with "a ruler of the Jews" (Jn 3:1, KJV).

And uneducated people never become famous, Ray.

That isn't what he said or even implied but I'm sure you know that.

Roger Pearse

Is this really in question? Think of all those Romans going off to Athens for their education. How much philosophy was in Greek, and how much in Latin.

Just my tuppenorth. I don't find the sort of argument based on what people 2000 years ago 'must' or 'must not' have done very compelling, myself.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

judge

Not amongst jews. Josephus took great pains to learn it and still couldn't pronounce it properly.

...I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations....
-- Antiquities of the Jews 20,11.2

Amaleq13

Obviously both issues are for me, Roger, since I asked about them.

This kind of condescending snideness absent any substantive information does you no favors.

If I knew the actual numbers, I doubt I would have had the question, Roger.

Any chance you might actually offer some useful information along these lines?

It is my understanding that Latin is better described as the lingua franca of the educated while Greek is better described as the lingua franca of commerce.

If you can provide information to disabuse me of these notions, I would appreciate it.

Who in this discussion is saying "must" or "must not"?

Clouseau

Maybe Nikodemos was the exception. Otoh, maybe Josephus was:

'Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs — we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"' Ac 2:5-11 NIV

'Some time later, as the number of disciples kept growing, there was a quarrel between the Greek-speaking Jews and the native Jews.' Ac 6:1 GNB

Amaleq13

If you could offer a reason to think so, this might become more than circular speculation.

A story about magical language comprehension isn't a rational basis for speculation.


Do you have a source(s) for the claims regarding the lingua franca of the educated and of Galilee or not?

angelo

All this talk about heaven and hell. Has anyone actualy have any idea what's it like in these places?? Is heaven a place where you play endless tunes on harps and grovel forever at god's feet? What about hell.? Is that where all the partying and orgies and boozing happens?? If the latter I know where I want to go. :Cheeky:

judge

Yes, Nicodemus was a "native" jew, not a greek speaker.

Clouseau

Odd, for someone with a Greek name.

judge

How many translations did you have to check before you found one with "Greek-speaking"?


1In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food. NIV

1In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.NAS

1And in these days, the disciples multiplying, there came a murmuring of the Hellenists at the Hebrews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily ministration, YLT

1 Now in these days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a murmuring of the Grecian Jews against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.ASV

You know, even though I disagree with many of the atheists and agnostics on this forum. By and large I respect them, in that they wouldn't try such a thing.

I dont have copy of the greek but I suspect that it does not mention Greek-speaking.

Am I correct?