Sheshonq

However that does not prove your claim. The Israel that exists today is not the same as the Israel that used to exist.

Moreover, you need to demonstrate that this happened by divine intervention, not by the normal workings of human governments and militaries.

Finally, you need to show that the current state of Israel conforms to the most reasonable interpretation of any of these prophecies.

You haven't even scratched the surface of the work that lies in front of you.

Not true. The countries with an interest in that region might care. The rest do not.

Johnny Skeptic

That is correct, but not the nation that Genesis 17:8 predicted. The key words in Genesis 17:8 are "all," and "everlasting." The partition of Palestine in 1948 failed on both counts. The partition did not include anywhere near all of the land of Canaan, and you certainly cannot start an everlasting covenant without having all of the land of Canaan.

Genesis 17:8 demolishes all of your arguments. None of it has been fulfilled. A Jewish nation will not do unless it occupies all of Palestine. Otherwise, you might as well claim that if the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine that that would be a fulfilled prophecy. Is that what you would like to claim?

It is interesting to note that an everlasting convenant cannot start unless the Jews control all of Palestine. Today, Jews do not control anywhere near all of Palestine.

But anyone would be concerned with instability in the most productive oil producing region in the entire world. If Jews and Palestinians were contesting land in a remote Austrailian desert that had no natural resources, all of the nations on earth most certainly would not be concerned with that.

The partition of Palestine was a self-fulling prophecy. If the Bible had never mentioned Jews, the partition of Palestine in 1948 would not have happened.

Consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_fulfilling_prophecy

Christians and Jews believe that God made a land promise to Abraham and his descendants. The Israeli Declaration of Statehood says that Jews were recovering land that God originally gave to them. How much more incentive for a self-fulfilling prophecy do you need? All that it took to accomplish the partition of Palestine was military power. The Allies won the Second World War. If the Axis powers had won the Second World War, Palestine would not have been partitioned. The United States emerged from the second world war as the greatest military and economic power in the world hands down. Germany was in ruin, along with Japan, and Russia was in ruin to a great extent. The United States was helping many countries recover from the war. No nation or group of nations were in a position to contest the U.S.'s desire that Palestine be partitioned, and that control of Jerusalem be given to the Jews.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: What did Abraham believe that God had promised him?

Johnny Skeptic

Regarding "as the prophets foretold," please quote some pertinent Scriptures?

arnoldo

God promised many things to Abraham including a child which caused both Abraham and Sarah to laugh because they were too old to have any children.

arnoldo

The golden age of Israel was under Solomon.

However according to John F. Walvoord "Major Bible Prophecies" this was not a total occupation of the land of Canaan.

Abraham received God's promises by faith,that's why Israel exists today as a nation.

Johnny Skeptic

All that I am interested in is what Abraham believed about God's promise to give him all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting covenant. I believe that Abraham believed that God was soon going to give him and descendants all of the land of Canaan, and that he did not believe that God said anything about his protection of the Jews being conditional upon good behavior. I believe that that claim was dreamed up AFTER THE FACT, meaning that after, contrary to Abraham's exceptions, the Jews were kicked out of Canaan, a cover up happened when predictions were made about the Jews being scattered when in fact they had already been scattered.

You claimed that Jews have never occupied all of the land of Canaan. Please quote your sources. If Jews have never occupied all of the land of Canaan, what sense would God's land promise have made to Abraham? You made that up because you know that if the Jews had ever occupied all of the land of Canaan that that would have started the beginning of an everlasting covenant, which as you know did not happen.

Johnny Skeptic

That is correct, but not the nation that Genesis 17:8 predicted. The key words in Genesis 17:8 are "all," and "everlasting." The partition of Palestine in 1948 failed on both counts. The partition did not include anywhere near all of the land of Canaan, and you certainly cannot start an everlasting covenant without having all of the land of Canaan.

Genesis 17:8 demolishes all of your arguments. None of it has been fulfilled. A Jewish nation will not do unless it occupies all of Palestine. Otherwise, you might as well claim that if the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine that that would be a fulfilled prophecy. Is that what you would like to claim?

It is interesting to note that an everlasting convenant cannot start unless the Jews control all of Palestine. Today, Jews do not control anywhere near all of Palestine.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: Are you not aware that the issue of God's character is just as important as the issues of his existence and power. There is no dispute that President Bush exists, and that he is powerful, but there are plenty of disputes about his character.

This thread does not come anywhere near addressinig a multitude of valid moral and philosophical arguments against Christianity even if a God did inspire the Bible.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: Genesis 17:8 demolishes all of your arguments. None of it has been fulfilled. A Jewish nation will not do unless it occupies all of Palestine. Otherwise, you might as well claim that if the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine that that would be a fulfilled prophecy. Is that what you would like to claim?

It is interesting to note that an everlasting convenant cannot start unless the Jews control all of Palestine. Today, Jews do not control anywhere near all of Palestine.

You claimed that Jews have never occupied all of Canaan. Please quote your sources.