Freethought & Rationalism Archive

themistocles · 09-14-2005, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Springer

I may be wrong (it has happened before) but I suspect that it will a tactical disaster. It is hard to imagine that a Supreme Court majority would support the district judge, and a decision upholding the pledge including 'under god' in school exercises would have to include language that would hurt us in other areas. The Fourth Circuit decision that reciting the pledge is a "patriotic exerecise" and therefore not a statement of official religious belief is an example of what is possible. Abuse of language (as courts sometimes are prone to) can work wonders in undermining our basic rights.

If the Supreme Court were to uphold the decision of the district judge, I would expect irresistible pressure to pass a Constitutional amendment. Then it's goodbye to the rights of nonbelievers. Fortunately for us, the Supreme Court ducked the issue last time.

True....a dog with a bone in its mouth doesn't bite.

I told the news to my students today (I'm student teaching, not professional yet) and they seemed universally upset with the decision. No ideological foot stamping or anything, they just thought it was ludicrous political correctness.

CaptDave · 09-14-2005, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Here we go again. Here comes Pope Newdow giving us another unwinnable case and screwing everything up for decades to come...

I have to agree, unfortunately. The timing really sucks too. Even the most liberal Senators are passionately against us on this - the same ones reviewing Shrub's SCOTUS nominees. This is all we need to swing their sympathies to the right.

Artemus · 09-14-2005, 06:28 PM

Refering to this thread's title, "under god" in the pledge was specifically found to be constitutional. What was found unconstitutional was reciting of the pledge with "under god" in it in public schools.

Aetas · 09-14-2005, 07:42 PM

Congratulations all you American posters!

Chalk up a point for us:

Secular: 1

SimplyAtheistic · 09-14-2005, 09:20 PM

I find it disheartening that everyone is bowing to the right and wishing this decision away. Yes, it may create sympathy for the right, but a stand is going to have to be made sooner or later. Opposition will be strong at first, but if we don't appear strong in our conviction, it will only hurt our image for the future. If you are wishing for more people to convert to atheism before garnering support, that kind of passive stance will only extend the amount of time it takes to witness any change. We must start to appear equally as strong as the christians are in defending their fairytales.

dancer_rnb · 09-14-2005, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninewands

I second that wish ... a ruling against ONUG in a case having an Xian plaintiff would be just about unassailable by the Radical Religious Right.

It wouldn't be a ruling against ONUG. It would be against pledging allegiance to a worldly government. Of course, it would take care of ONUG in passing.....

Mickie · 09-15-2005, 01:37 AM

Lou Dobbs update:

Do you believe the two words "under God" render the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

Yes 61% 4985 votes
No 39% 3175 votes

Color me surprised.

Killer Mike · 09-15-2005, 02:29 AM

Fuck in A! Cool.

I remember in school being forced to say "One Nation Under God" even though I knew there was no god. So many times I felt like saying "fuck you" and it really pissed me off. But I knew Id get in trouble with the teacher (I was just a kid in grade school at the time) and was intimidated.

To the atheist who is heading this fight: :notworthy and :thumbs:

Professor · 09-15-2005, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DigitalChicken

Here we go again. Here comes Pope Newdow giving us another unwinnable case and screwing everything up for decades to come...

DC

Yeah, what kind of egotistical jerk demands that his constitutional rights take precedence over the wishes of the majority? That would be like some black woman fighting for the right to ride in the front seat of a city bus. Some people just don't know their place.

Lunawalk · 09-15-2005, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor

Yeah, what kind of egotistical jerk demands that his constitutional rights take precedence over the wishes of the majority? That would be like some black woman fighting for the right to ride in the front seat of a city bus. Some people just don't know their place.

Well I don't think the pledge is worth the effort. It will cause more harm than good. Conservatives will simply come up with an constitutional amendment. Plus this will become an issue in the 2006 house and the 2008 presidential races in 2008 .I think atheists should win hearts and minds of common Americans first.Than the law will follow.
After the civil war african americans received their rights as citizens yet because the majority population had an hostile view of black people. those right was not enfored for an 100 years. The Civil rights movement charged hearts and minds first and the law followed.

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09-14-2005, 06:28 PM	#43
Artemus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USA Posts: 2,467	Refering to this thread's title, "under god" in the pledge was specifically found to be constitutional. What was found unconstitutional was reciting of the pledge with "under god" in it in public schools.

09-14-2005, 07:42 PM	#44
Aetas Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 1,048	Congratulations all you American posters! Chalk up a point for us: Secular: 1

09-14-2005, 09:20 PM	#45
SimplyAtheistic Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Posts: 503	I find it disheartening that everyone is bowing to the right and wishing this decision away. Yes, it may create sympathy for the right, but a stand is going to have to be made sooner or later. Opposition will be strong at first, but if we don't appear strong in our conviction, it will only hurt our image for the future. If you are wishing for more people to convert to atheism before garnering support, that kind of passive stance will only extend the amount of time it takes to witness any change. We must start to appear equally as strong as the christians are in defending their fairytales.

09-15-2005, 01:37 AM	#47
Mickie Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: SW Ohio, USA Posts: 1,270	Lou Dobbs update: Do you believe the two words "under God" render the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional? Yes 61% 4985 votes No 39% 3175 votes Color me surprised.

09-15-2005, 02:29 AM	#48
Killer Mike Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,033	Fuck in A! Cool. I remember in school being forced to say "One Nation Under God" even though I knew there was no god. So many times I felt like saying "fuck you" and it really pissed me off. But I knew Id get in trouble with the teacher (I was just a kid in grade school at the time) and was intimidated. To the atheist who is heading this fight: :notworthy and :thumbs:

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