Queen of Swords

My first post in this forum, so please excuse me if I ask about something that's either very old or very basic for everyone.

I always assumed that the wise men mentioned in Matthew's gospel visited Mary and Joseph just after Jesus was born, because that's the image on all the christmas cards. However, someone recently told me that this wasn't the case, because in Matthew, a reference is made to Jesus being a child at the time, rather than the baby. Moreover, the wise men apparently went to a house to see the family, rather than going to a stable. In other words, the wise men went to see Jesus when he was about two years old, and presumably in a better domicile.

Is this all accurate? My bible mentions the words "child" and "house" in Matthew's gospel, but it's still hard for me to shake off the traditional image of the three wise men (it doesn't even say there were three, does it?) kneeling before the manger.

Toto

Hi QoS - welcome to this forum.

There have been prior discussions on the Magi and the "star" that they were following, but I don't recall anyone questioning the age of Jesus.

Of course, it's just a story anyway, and sometimes the details don't fit together very well.

But if you want to read up on past discussions, we have

The Three "wise men" (Nowhere does the text say that there were three.)

Christian invention of people (Did the magi exist?)

Amaleq13

LOL! If we can't trust Hallmark, who can we trust?

Mt 2:7 has the mages informing Herod of the exact timing of the star but we aren't told what they said. However, Mt 2:16 has Herod ordering all male children two and under to be slain.

Taking all three of these together, it would appear that Jesus could have been as old as two by the time the mages come into the picture.

Welcome to BC&H, QoS!

Vinnie

Bingo. In Luke the visit occurs right as Jesus is born. In Matthew chapter two it occurs later:

After Jesus is born the magi come to visit. They say, "we saw his star. When herod hears this he and all Jerusalemn become disturbed. THis fiction must take at least some time to transpire (of course only a few days is necessary).

Herod then calls together all the leaders about the Christ.

Then in 2:7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. Then he sent them to Bethlehem to find the child and report back.

"""16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. """

Of course we can also surmise that Herod wanted to be extra cautious. Jesus may have only been 1. But to be safe all the young youngins were killed. Also no real time is needed for Herod to learn that he was outwitted. Maybe a couple of days at most.

But yeah, Matthew places this event significantly after the actual birth of Jesus. On a different note, for an example of a clear error between the two as Luke narrates a SHORT trip to bethlehem:

We have just established their stay was not at all short.

http://www.after-hourz.net/ri/infancyerror.html

Vinnie

Queen of Swords

Vinnie, could you give me the verse in Luke which mentions the wise men's visit? I couldn't find it.

One thing I did learn from luke-ing through this gospel, though, was that both the terms "babe" and "child" are used to refer to Jesus at the same time in his life.

Vinnie

Luke 2:7-20. Its very clear this happens on the same night. The angel tells the men that Jesus was born this very day. Then they rush off to Bethlehem to see him and find him still in the manger with Mary where he was born.

Vinnie

spin

I think Vinnie was. . . umm, . . . harmonizing the two accounts. Possibly he was referring to the shepherd (king)s


spin

Vinnie

Spin is correct (the latter). I use the visit collectively as both birth narratives have a visit but at different times by different groups. I think this then must be some common theme. Great person is born thus he must have been visited mentality....yadda yadda...

I misunderstood you as you misunderstood me (as I was not clear enough which is why you couldn't fidn the reference). My last response answered about the shepherd when you said wisemen too. Doh!

The Evil One

Matthew doesn't mention the stable at any point. He does mention a "house" in Bethlehem.

Only Luke mentions the stable, and Luke doesn't mention the wise men.


That image does not reflect anything in the Gospels accounts. The meeting it depicts compounds elements from the separate stories in Matthew and Luke.

By the way, just to respond to Vinnie saying that Matthew implies a long "stay" in Bethlehem whereas Luke implies a short one, Matthew implies nothing of the kind. Matthew implies that they were living in Bethlehem and that was their permanent home - see his later introduction of Nazareth in terms that make it clear that Joseph was no customary resident of that place:

Amaleq13

I'm sure one of the resident cunning linguists can help you out on this one but I suspect the differing terms aren't all that helpful in identifying a specific age.