Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 05-10-2012, 11:41 AM

I have been thinking about this all day and I found this reference particularly fascinating:

Quote:

The Montanists and Marcionites shared the belief that their Eucharist should consist of milk and honey to recreate the Edenic vision of Exodus 3:8, in which God came “to bring them to a country rich and broad, to a country flowing with milk and honey." Milk was symbolically opposed to blood, and honey was a foretaste of heaven. [Rod Preece, Sins of the Flesh: A History of Ethical Vegetarian Thought p. 132]

If I was on the Oprah show, I would describe reading this as an 'a ha' moment. This understanding brings together a number of individual strands of thought I have been working on for some time namely:

a) the Marcionites can't have been 'against' the Jewish religion if their sacrament is a reflection of Exodus chapter 3
b) the kingdom of God was understood to be the promise of Canaan either figuratively but now perhaps more certainly literally (i.e. that it was originally taken in some quasi-revolutionary sense or at least so the Romans thought cf. Celsus in Origen).
c) Clement's Alexandrian tradition shared the same idea of the baptismal ritual which brought forward 'milk and honey' with the Marcionites

Indeed if you look at Paedagogue Book Two Clement makes it plain that the 'bread and wine' is a lower manifestation the divine dispensation brought forward by the heavenly Jesus. The milk, honey and water is 'spiritual' where as the bread and wine is material. I am not sure Preece is right about 'opposing' milk and blood. Clement says that milk literally develops from blood in the body (the ancients had a bizarre understanding of how the body worked). But the point is that I am increasingly convinced that bread and wine (= fleshand blood) HAVE NOTHING TO DO with baptism. In other words there were two separate rituals - one for the rabble and another for the elite, the elect. Only the chosen received water, milk and honey.

The dispensation of flesh and blood was for everyone - i.e. unlike the current Christian distinction that one had to receive baptism in order to partake. Clement says at one point that 'some' misinterpret Paul's statement about milk and meat to say that milk comes before the meat. This is not true says Clement. Meat is given to everyone. Only those who have become adopted children receive milk (= the few).

I think this is very interesting because baptism seems to emerge as a thing at the end of a process where people have long been taking the 'material sacraments.' In other words, baptism wasn't a gateway to the consumption of flesh and blood, it was the other way around.

I am even thinking that John 13:15 - 16:27 shouldn't be conceived as a retelling as the giving of bread and wine. This must have been a second 'interior' set of instructions for the few. When Clement makes reference to this material, it is much more limited (he starts at John 14:27 and ignores much of what of now appears in John). Moreover he never indicates it appeared in a separate 'gospel of John.' He acts like it just appeared 'in the gospel' - whatever that was.

There is a lot of interesting stuff here. I don't think people have picked up on this notion of an 'interior' Agape originally present in the gospel (i.e. the equivalent of John 14:27 reads in Clement's gospel 'I give you my Agape' rather than 'I give you my peace') which must have been the baptism rite explicitly referenced in Hypotyposies (i.e. that Jesus baptized Simon Peter). The milk and honey references make it implicit that Jesus gave his baptism rite 'for the kingdom of God' too.

sotto voce · 05-10-2012, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I have been thinking about this all day and I found this reference particularly fascinating:

Quote:

The Montanists and Marcionites shared the belief that their Eucharist should consist of milk and honey to recreate the Edenic vision of Exodus 3:8, in which God came “to bring them to a country rich and broad, to a country flowing with milk and honey." Milk was symbolically opposed to blood, and honey was a foretaste of heaven. [Rod Preece, Sins of the Flesh: A History of Ethical Vegetarian Thought p. 132]

If I was on the Oprah show, I would describe reading this as an 'a ha' moment. This understanding brings together a number of individual strands of thought I have been working on for some time namely:

a) the Marcionites can't have been 'against' the Jewish religion if their sacrament is a reflection of Exodus chapter 3
b) the kingdom of God was understood to be the promise of Canaan either figuratively but now perhaps more certainly literally (i.e. that it was originally taken in some quasi-revolutionary sense or at least so the Romans thought cf. Celsus in Origen).
c) Clement's Alexandrian tradition shared the same idea of the baptismal ritual which brought forward 'milk and honey' with the Marcionites

Indeed if you look at Paedagogue Book Two Clement makes it plain that the 'bread and wine' is a lower manifestation the divine dispensation brought forward by the heavenly Jesus. The milk, honey and water is 'spiritual' where as the bread and wine is material. I am not sure Preece is right about 'opposing' milk and blood. Clement says that milk develops from blood. But the point is that I am increasingly convinced that bread and wine (= fleshand blood) HAVE NOTHING TO DO with baptism. In other words there were two separate rituals - one for the rabble and another for the elite, the elect. Only the chosen received water, milk and honey.

The dispensation of flesh and blood was for everyone - i.e. unlike the current Christian distinction that one had to receive baptism in order to partake. Clement says at one point that 'some' misinterpret Paul's statement about milk and meat to say that milk comes before the meat. This is not true says Clement. Meat is given to everyone. Only those who have become adopted children receive milk (= the few).

I think this is very interesting because baptism seems to emerge as a thing at the end of a process where people have long been taking the 'material sacraments.' In other words, baptism wasn't a gateway to

Pretension?

stephan huller · 05-10-2012, 11:51 AM

I am also working on a proof that the LXX 'ho on' reading in Exodus 3:14 is a translation of the original presence of the Hebrew term yesh (= being, substance) there (by way of John 8:58 Peshitta, Old Syriac ithay and reflected in the Sahidic, Ethiopic, Georgian, Armenian reads of the same passage). In other words, Jesus was already understood to be 'there' in Exodus 3. The gospel narrative was just 'moving' the historical narrative 'into the present' - i.e. the kind god, yesh who appeared to Moses appeared before the destruction of the temple to warn our ancestors. The Marcionites and the Alexandrian tradition was rooted in this understanding and the gospel narrative was a retelling of Exodus (which is not an outlandish hypothesis).

andrewcriddle · 05-10-2012, 12:32 PM

Giving milk and honey to newly baptized Christians seems to have been an early and widespread practice.

Possibly Marcion just had the same ritual as other Christian groups, but his opponents held that this resemblance between Marcionite and 'orthodox' ritual was inconsistent with Marcion's doctrine.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 05-10-2012, 03:34 PM

What am I supposed to say to that? In any event, here are the references to Exodus 3:8 in the Church Fathers:

Quote:

He it is who spake with Moses in the bush, and said: Seeing have I seen the affliction of thy people that is in Egypt; and I am come down to deliver them.132 He it is who came forth and came down for the deliverance of the oppressed, bringing us out from the power of the Egyptians, that is, from all idolatry and impiety; and delivering us from the Red Sea, that is, delivering us from the deadly confusion of the Gentiles and the grievous vexation of their blasphemy. For in them the Word of God prepared and rehearsed beforehand the things concerning us. Then He set forth in types beforehand that which was to be; now in very truth He has brought us out from the cruel service of the Gentiles, and a stream of water in the desert has He made to flow forth in abundance from a rock; and that rock is Himself; and has given twelve fountains, that is, the teaching of the twelve apostles. And the obstinate unbelievers He brought to an end and consumed in the wilderness; but those who believed on Him, and in malice were children, He made to enter into the inheritance of the fathers; whom not Moses, but Jesus puts in possession of the heritage [Irenaeus Demonstratio 46]

Quote:

But the childhood which is in Christ is maturity, as compared with the law. Having reached this point, we must defend our childhood. And we have still to explain what is said by the apostle: I have fed you with milk as children of God, not with meat; for you were not able, neither yet are you now able (γάλα ὑμᾶς ἐπότισα, ὡς νηπίους ἐν Χριστῷ, οὐ βρῶμα· οὔπω γὰρ ἐδύνασθε. ἀλλ' οὐδὲ ἔτι νῦν δύνασθε) 1 Corinthians 3:2 For it does not appear to me that the expression is to be taken in a Jewish sense; for I shall oppose to it also that Scripture, I will bring you into that good land which flows with milk and honey. Exodus 3:8 A very great difficulty arises in reference to the comparison of these Scriptures, when we consider. For if the infancy which is characterized by the milk is the beginning of faith in Christ, then it is disparaged as childish and imperfect. How is the rest that comes after the meat, the rest of the man who is perfect and endowed with knowledge, again distinguished by infant milk? Does not this, as explaining a parable, mean something like this, and is not the expression to be read somewhat to the following effect: I have fed you with milk in Christ; and after a slight stop, let us add, as children, that by separating the words in reading we may make out some such sense as this: I have instructed you in Christ with simple, true, and natural nourishment—namely, that which is spiritual: for such is the nourishing substance of milk swelling out from breasts of love. So that the whole matter may be conceived thus: As nurses nourish new-born children on milk, so do I also by the Word, the milk of Christ, instilling into you spiritual nutriment. Thus, then, the milk which is perfect is perfect nourishment, and brings to that consummation which cannot cease. Wherefore also the same milk and honey were promised in the rest. [Clement Paed 1.6]

Quote:

With milk, then, the Lord's nutriment, we are nursed directly we are born; and as soon as we are regenerated, we are honoured by receiving the good news of the hope of rest, even the Jerusalem above, in which it is written that milk and honey fall in showers, receiving through what is material the pledge of the sacred food. For meats are done away with, 1 Corinthians 6:13 as the apostle himself says; but this nourishment on milk leads to the heavens, rearing up citizens of heaven, and members of the angelic choirs. [ibid]

Quote:

For, because Jesus Christ was to introduce the second people (which is composed of us nations, lingering deserted in the world164 aforetime) into the land of promise, "flowing with milk and honey"165 (that is, into the possession of eternal life, than which nought is sweeter); and this had to come about, not through Moses (that is, not through the Law's discipline), but through Joshua (that is, through the new law's grace), after our circumcision with "a knife of rock"166 (that is, with Christ's precepts, for Christ is in many ways and figures predicted as a rock167 ); therefore the man who was being prepared to act as images of this sacrament was inaugurated under the figure of the Lord's name, even so as to be named Jesus.168 For He who ever spake to Moses was the Son of God Himself; who, too, was always seen.169 For God the Father none ever saw, and lived.170 [23] And accordingly it is agreed that the Son of God Himself spake to Moses, and said to the people, "Behold, I send mine angel before thy"--that is, the people's--"face, to guard thee on the march, and to introduce thee into the land which I have prepared thee: attend to him, and be not disobedient to him; for he hath not escaped171 thy notice, since my name is upon him." [Tertullian Against the Jews 9]

Quote:

Another form of speech will be that by which not a few things are set forth figuratively by means of enigmas and allegories and parables, and are to be understood otherwise than as they are written.2 And so we read that the mountains will distil sweetness,b yet not so that you should expect fruit-juice from stones or wine from rocks: and we hear of a land flowing with milk and honey,c yet not for you to think you will ever squeeze cakes and sweetmeats out of clods of earth: nor did God in set terms promise to be a water-diviner or a forester when he said, I will set rivers in a thirsty land, and the box-tree and the cedar in the wilderness.d So also when he tells of the conversion of the gentiles, and says, The beasts of the field shall bless me, the sirens and the daughters of the sparrows,e he is certainly not expecting to receive favourable omens from swallows' fledgelings or from little foxes or from those preternatural fabulous women singers. Why need I say more of this practice? Even the heretics' own apostle interprets as concerning not oxen but ourselves that law which grants an unmuzzled mouth to the oxen that tread out the corn,f and affirms that the rock that followed them to provide drink was Christ,g in the same way as he instructs the Galatians that the two narratives of the sons of Abraham took their course as an allegory,h and advises the Ephesians that that which was foretold in the beginning, that a man would leave his father and mother, and that he and his wife would become one flesh, is seen by him to refer to Christ and the Church. [Against Marcion 3:5]

Because Jesus the Christ was going to bring the second people, which are we, born in the wilderness of <this> world, into the land of promise, flowing with milk and honey, which means the inheritance of eternal life, than which nothing is sweeter: and because this was going to be effected not by Moses, not, that is, by the discipline of the law, but by Jesus, through the grace of the gospel, after we had been circumcised with the knife of flint, that is, the precepts of Christ—for the rock was Christ—therefore that man who was being set aside for the similitudes of this mystery was also first established in the likeness of our Lord's name, being surnamed Jesus [Jehoshua]. Christ himself, when talking with Moses, bore witness that this name is his own. For who was it that was talking? Surely the Creator's Spirit, who is Christ. When therefore he spoke to the people, to whom he had given the commandments, and said, Behold I send my angel before thy face, to guard thee in the way, and to bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee: give heed to him and hear him, disobey him not, for he will not hide it from thee that my name is upon him:b he called him an angel because of the greatness of the exploits he was to perform, and because of his office of prophet in declaring the will of God [Tertullian Against Marcioin 3:17]

Quote:

And again, he says, the Saviour has declared, The publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of heaven before you. Matthew 21:31 For the publicans, he says, are those who receive the revenues of all things; but we, he says, are the publicans, unto whom the ends of the ages have come. For the ends, he says, are the seeds scattered from the unportrayable one upon the world, through which the whole cosmical system is completed; for through these also it began to exist. And this, he says, is what has been declared: The sower went forth to sow. And some fell by the wayside, and was trodden down; and some on the rocky places, and sprang up, he says, and on account of its having no depth (of soil), it withered and died; and some, he says, fell on fair and good ground, and brought forth fruit, some a hundred, some sixty, and some thirty fold. Who has ears, he says, to hear, let him hear. The meaning of this, he says, is as follows, that none becomes a hearer of these mysteries, unless only the perfect Gnostics. This, he says, is the fair and good land which Moses speaks of: I will bring you into a fair and good land, into a land flowing with milk and honey. This, he says, is the honey and the milk, by tasting which those that are perfect become kingless, and share in the Pleroma. This, he says, is the Pleroma, through which all existent things that are produced have from the ingenerable one been both produced and completed. [Philosophumena 5:3]

Quote:

Canon 19 is a long one dealing with catechumens, preparation for baptism, administration of that sacrament, and of the Eucharist for the newly baptized. The candidate is twice anointed: first, with the oil of exorcism, after he has said, with his face westward, "I renounce you, O devil, and all your following"; and, again, immediately after the baptism. As he stands in the water, he declares his faith in response to an interrogatory creed; and after each of the three clauses he is immersed. After the second anointing the bishop gives thanks "for that You hast made them worthy that they should be born again, and hast poured out your Holy Spirit upon them, so that they may belong, each one of them, to the body of the Church": he signs them with the cross on their foreheads, and kisses them. The Eucharist then proceeds: "the bishop gives them of the Body of Christ and says, This is the body of Christ, and they answer Amen"; and similarly for the cup. Milk and honey are then given to them as being " born a second time as little children." A warning is added against eating anything before communicating.

Then, after sealingb each of them on the forehead, he shall give them the kiss of peace
and say,
"The Lord be with you."
And the one who has been baptized shall say,
"And with your spirit."
24So shall he do to each one.

25From then on they will pray together will all the people. Prior to this they may not pray
with the faithful until they have completed all. 26After they pray, let them give the kiss
of peace.

27Then the deacons shall immediately bring the oblation. The bishop shall bless the bread,
which is the symbol of the Body of Christ; and the bowl of mixed winec, which is the
symbol of the Blood which has been shed for all who believe in him; 28and the milk and
honey mixed together, in fulfillment of the promise made to the fathers, in which he said,
"a land flowing with milk and honey," which Christ indeed gave, his Flesh, through which
those who believe are nourished like little children, by the sweetness of his Word,
softening the bitter heart; 29and water also for an oblation, as a sign of the baptism, so
that the inner person, which is psychic, may also receive the same as the body. 30The
bishop shall give an explanation of all these things to those who are receiving.

31Breaking the bread, distributing a piece to each, he shall say,
"The Bread of Heaven in Jesus Christ."
32And the one who receives shall answer,
"Amen."

33The elders, and the deacons if there are not enough, shall hold the cups and stand
together in good order and with reverence: first the one who holds the water, second the
one who holds the milk, and third the one who holds the wine. 34They who partake shall
taste of each three times. And he who gives shall say,
"In God the Father Almighty."
The one who receives shall respond,
"Amen."
35The one giving shall say,
"And in the Lord Jesus Christ."
The one who receives shall respond,
"Amen."
36The one giving shall say,
"And in the Holy Spirit, and in the Holy Church."
And the one who receives shall respond,
"Amen."
37It shall be done so for each.

Quote:

Likewise, if someone makes an offering of cheese and olives, the bishop shall say,
2"Sanctify this brought-together milk, just as you also bring us together in your love. 3Let this
fruit not leave your sweetness, this olive which is a symbol of your abundance, which you made
to flow from the tree, for life to those who hope in you."
4In every blessing should be said:
To you be glory,
Father and Son
with the Holy Spirit,
in your Holy Church,
now and forever,
and throughout all the ages of the ages.
Amen. [Hippolytus Apostolic Tradition 6]

sotto voce · 05-10-2012, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

What am I supposed to say to that? In any event, here are the references to Exodus 3:8 in the Church Fathers:

Quote:

He it is who spake with Moses in the bush, and said: Seeing have I seen the affliction of thy people that is in Egypt; and I am come down to deliver them.132 He it is who came forth and came down for the deliverance of the oppressed, bringing us out from the power of the Egyptians, that is, from all idolatry and impiety; and delivering us from the Red Sea, that is, delivering us from the deadly confusion of the Gentiles and the grievous vexation of their blasphemy. For in them the Word of God prepared and rehearsed beforehand the things concerning us. Then He set forth in types beforehand that which was to be; now in very truth He has brought us out from the cruel service of the Gentiles, and a stream of water in the desert has He made to flow forth in abundance from a rock; and that rock is Himself; and has given twelve fountains, that is, the teaching of the twelve apostles. And the obstinate unbelievers He brought to an end and consumed in the wilderness; but those who believed on Him, and in malice were children, He made to enter into the inheritance of the fathers; whom not Moses, but Jesus puts in possession of the heritage [Irenaeus Demonstratio 46]

Quote:

But the childhood which is in Christ is maturity, as compared with the law. Having reached this point, we must defend our childhood. And we have still to explain what is said by the apostle: I have fed you with milk as children of God, not with meat; for you were not able, neither yet are you now able (γάλα ὑμᾶς ἐπότισα, ὡς νηπίους ἐν Χριστῷ, οὐ βρῶμα· οὔπω γὰρ ἐδύνασθε. ἀλλ' οὐδὲ ἔτι νῦν δύνασθε) 1 Corinthians 3:2 For it does not appear to me that the expression is to be taken in a Jewish sense; for I shall oppose to it also that Scripture, I will bring you into that good land which flows with milk and honey. Exodus 3:8 A very great difficulty arises in reference to the comparison of these Scriptures, when we consider. For if the infancy which is characterized by the milk is the beginning of faith in Christ, then it is disparaged as childish and imperfect. How is the rest that comes after the meat, the rest of the man who is perfect and endowed with knowledge, again distinguished by infant milk? Does not this, as explaining a parable, mean something like this, and is not the expression to be read somewhat to the following effect: I have fed you with milk in Christ; and after a slight stop, let us add, as children, that by separating the words in reading we may make out some such sense as this: I have instructed you in Christ with simple, true, and natural nourishment—namely, that which is spiritual: for such is the nourishing substance of milk swelling out from breasts of love. So that the whole matter may be conceived thus: As nurses nourish new-born children on milk, so do I also by the Word, the milk of Christ, instilling into you spiritual nutriment. Thus, then, the milk which is perfect is perfect nourishment, and brings to that consummation which cannot cease. Wherefore also the same milk and honey were promised in the rest. [Clement Paed 1.6]

Quote:

With milk, then, the Lord's nutriment, we are nursed directly we are born; and as soon as we are regenerated, we are honoured by receiving the good news of the hope of rest, even the Jerusalem above, in which it is written that milk and honey fall in showers, receiving through what is material the pledge of the sacred food. For meats are done away with, 1 Corinthians 6:13 as the apostle himself says; but this nourishment on milk leads to the heavens, rearing up citizens of heaven, and members of the angelic choirs. [ibid]

I was right.

stephan huller · 05-10-2012, 08:02 PM

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-10-2012, 11:51 AM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am also working on a proof that the LXX 'ho on' reading in Exodus 3:14 is a translation of the original presence of the Hebrew term yesh (= being, substance) there (by way of John 8:58 Peshitta, Old Syriac ithay and reflected in the Sahidic, Ethiopic, Georgian, Armenian reads of the same passage). In other words, Jesus was already understood to be 'there' in Exodus 3. The gospel narrative was just 'moving' the historical narrative 'into the present' - i.e. the kind god, yesh who appeared to Moses appeared before the destruction of the temple to warn our ancestors. The Marcionites and the Alexandrian tradition was rooted in this understanding and the gospel narrative was a retelling of Exodus (which is not an outlandish hypothesis).

05-10-2012, 12:32 PM	#4
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	Giving milk and honey to newly baptized Christians seems to have been an early and widespread practice. Possibly Marcion just had the same ritual as other Christian groups, but his opponents held that this resemblance between Marcionite and 'orthodox' ritual was inconsistent with Marcion's doctrine. Andrew Criddle

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.