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Originally Posted by Gamera
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Originally Posted by gnosis92
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."
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It's clear from the context that Paul is speaking about himself, and is refering to himself in the third person for rhetorical effect.
His whole point here is the defense of his ministry against his detractors. He's using the classical rhetorical trope of "not to mention," whereby he says he won't boast and then goes on to list all the things he could boast about, but doesn't, thereby making his point. In 2 Cor 12 1 he states there's no point in boasting, and then goes on to talk about the "man" who had this vision, and concludes, "I ill boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself."
It's a rhetorical device whereby he gets to bring up the things he wants to boast about (his vision) while pretending he's not boasting.
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The passage is crucial for anyone trying to understand Paul's conversion experience and the underlying neuro-psychological (or neuro-theological, if you have already discovered Joseph, Newberg, Persinger & Co,) touchpoints of the "Jesus" movement. Paul, is indeed defending himself, and his status of apostle, by producing the "goods", i.e. revealing to his congregation he too had visions of Jesus, i.e. the gift of the pneumatic (or today,the manic) to experience the mystical phenomena that were associated with the name in Paul's time. What he is talking about is a super-high euphoria, which culminates in absolutely astounding physical sensations, of bodily transformation, or as Jesus reported on the Mount "a body full of light" (known medically as "photism"), an orgasmic release and sense of final arrival and dissolution. The meaning of this experience was the subject matter of great debates among the mystics of Paul's time.
The mentation around the peak was first correlated with regular mortals by a Montreal mystic R.D. Bucke in his classic "Cosmic Consciousness" in 1896. Bucke, a professional psychiatrist, refused to see the phenomena as having medical side to them, although some of his contemporaries frankly admitted to him that after "the light struck" they went off the deep end, i.e. were seriously ill in the head. Among Bucke's personal friends was Walter Whitman who said he owed the doctor his life.
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Note that in 12:7 he makes it absolutely clear that he's talking about himself when he discusses the "thorn in his side," problem, which he claims was to prevent him from getting too "elated" (whatever that means, arrogant, perhaps?) about the abundance of revelations he was given.
2 Corinthians 12:7 - And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated.
As to its gnostic elements, I see nothing particularly gnostic about the passage, or at least nothing that isn't consistent with orthodox Christian theology. Further this passage accords with Paul's claim at other points that he had direct revelations from the risen Christ, as well as several references in Acts to his vision.
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12:7-10 This is Paul's genius focusing on and "handling" mania's downside, the depression and its effects. His saying that Satan put a thorn in his side to keep him from being too elated, shows he understands that he cannot sustain the paradisiac euphoria that engulfs him. He uses theological concepts because he has no other frame of reference. Frankly, though, I doubt he would have listen to doctors today even if they had talked to him. It's a well known truth that manics love their trips.
But Paul knows that his paradisiac highs and hellish lows are interrelated, and so he comes with a brilliant contrapunctal assessment of his condition as "power made perfect in weakness". Paul knew that when he went to up to the holy of holies, he would next have the riders of Apocalypse on his heels.
"Paulus" means "small" and there is a really interesting issue with the converts insisting on changing their names to dramatize they were "changed". The inaugural manic fugue (if it happens in mid-life) really does change people in fundamental ways. It was not originally a cliche of someone who just talked to Jesus and wants to be called Theodore, but still eats popcorn and watches cartoons. I reckon that the rejection of Jesus by his family was a therapeutic model for people who through the sudden, unplanned acquaintance with the supernatural (that comes like a thief in the night), lost contact or were forced to make a rather drastic break with the past, with their no-longer-loving-ones and follow "HIM" wherever he led them. Hence the puzzling saying of Luke 14:26.
It's clear that Paul would have none of that. He developed his own mantra to reduce his manic states, and one of the techniques was to remove his ego from the euphoric "glory", and interpret it as belonging to "Christ". So the boasting of his weakness was very important to him in two ways. It would have had a "cooling" effect on his overheating brain ("This stuff that comes over me is not "me", I am a small mortal") and it was a considerable weapon to wield against his competitors who were most likely keeping quiet about the down-side of their trips. It was Paul's way of telling them - you can't kid me about your "power" or the "power of your Jesus". If he is the greatest power in heaven; it is because he was nobody on earth. That's my revelation!
JS
07-10-2006, 09:57 PM
Manic in Christ
