Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vid · 07-11-2009, 01:48 PM

Did catholic church ever declare its inerrancy (by some decree, council, or something)? If so, when and where for the first time? I mean inerrancy of church, not inerrancy of bible.

David B · 07-11-2009, 01:57 PM

I wonder if you mean the doctrine of infallibilty (not inerrancy, though I'm buggered if I can see much difference)

That was declared in 1870

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

Quote:

Papal infallibility is the dogma in Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation. It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church, as sensus fidelium, to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible will be received by all Catholics. This dogma, however, does not state that the Pope cannot commit sin in his own personal life.

This doctrine was defined dogmatically in the First Vatican Council of 1870. According to Catholic theology, there are several concepts important to the understanding of infallible, divine revelation: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Sacred Magisterium. The infallible teachings of the Pope are part of the Sacred Magisterium, which also consists of ecumenical councils and the "ordinary and universal magisterium". In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is one of the channels of the infallibility of the Church. The infallible teachings of the Pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. Papal infallibility does not signify that the Pope is impeccable, i.e., that he is specially exempt from liability to sin.

David B

Clivedurdle · 07-11-2009, 02:00 PM

Not quite the way science does things!

vid · 07-11-2009, 02:01 PM

Oh, it is "infallibilty" that's why I couldn't find anything by googling. Thanks!

vid · 07-11-2009, 04:01 PM

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infalli..._of_the_Church, decrees of councils are infallible as well:

Quote:

Catholic theology divides the functions of the teaching office of the Church into two categories: the infallible Sacred Magisterium and the fallible Ordinary Magisterium. The infallible Sacred Magisterium includes the extraordinary declarations of the Pope speaking ex cathedra and of ecumenical councils (traditionally expressed in conciliar creeds, canons, and decrees), as well as of the ordinary and universal Magisterium. Despite its name, the "ordinary and universal Magisterium" falls under the infallible Sacred Magisterium, and in fact is the usual manifestation of the infallibility of the Church, the decrees of popes and councils being "extraordinary".

Examples of infallible extraordinary papal definitions (and, hence, of teachings of the sacred magisterium) are Pope Pius IX's definition of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and Pope Pius XII's definition of the Assumption of Mary. Examples of infallible extraordinary Conciliar decrees include the Council of Trent's decree on justification, and Vatican I's definition of papal infallibility. Examples of infallible teachings of the ordinary and universal Magisterium are harder to point to, since these are not contained in any one specific document, but are the common teachings found among the Bishops dispersed through the world yet united with the Pope. Pope John Paul II specifically clarified that the reservation of ordination to males is infallible under the infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Church, without issuing a corresponding extraordinary papal definition.

I am still little bit confused what is infallible and what is fallible. It states that decrees of ecumenical councils are infallible, but in examples lists Trent and Vatican I council decrees as fallible. Were these not "ecumenical councils"? If yes, then what is?

EDIT: More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium#Levels. But I still don't get why the decree of 1st Vatican council doesn't count into category 2 or 3.

David B · 07-11-2009, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infalli..._of_the_Church, decrees of councils are infallible as well:

Quote:

Catholic theology divides the functions of the teaching office of the Church into two categories: the infallible Sacred Magisterium and the fallible Ordinary Magisterium. The infallible Sacred Magisterium includes the extraordinary declarations of the Pope speaking ex cathedra and of ecumenical councils (traditionally expressed in conciliar creeds, canons, and decrees), as well as of the ordinary and universal Magisterium. Despite its name, the "ordinary and universal Magisterium" falls under the infallible Sacred Magisterium, and in fact is the usual manifestation of the infallibility of the Church, the decrees of popes and councils being "extraordinary".

Examples of infallible extraordinary papal definitions (and, hence, of teachings of the sacred magisterium) are Pope Pius IX's definition of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and Pope Pius XII's definition of the Assumption of Mary. Examples of infallible extraordinary Conciliar decrees include the Council of Trent's decree on justification, and Vatican I's definition of papal infallibility. Examples of infallible teachings of the ordinary and universal Magisterium are harder to point to, since these are not contained in any one specific document, but are the common teachings found among the Bishops dispersed through the world yet united with the Pope. Pope John Paul II specifically clarified that the reservation of ordination to males is infallible under the infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Church, without issuing a corresponding extraordinary papal definition.

I am still little bit confused what is infallible and what is fallible. It states that decrees of ecumenical councils are infallible, but in examples lists Trent and Vatican I council decrees as fallible. Were these not "ecumenical councils"? If yes, then what is?

EDIT: More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium#Levels. But I still don't get why the decree of 1st Vatican council doesn't count into category 2 or 3.

If you are a little confused, it is because Catholic theology is more than a little confused, IMV.

David B

Splarnst · 07-11-2009, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Not quite the way science does things!

Of course not. Science is about finding out the truth. Religion is about making stuff up and condemning people who don't believe you.

vid · 07-11-2009, 05:42 PM

Got it!

Catholic encyclopedia infallibility explains nicely: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

As for scope of infallibility, basically only decisions on moral and faith can be infallible. For example decrees on sciencie are not infallible directly, only in connection to faith doctrines (we infallibly know god created humans => we infallibly know evolution is false). Encyclopedia acknowledges that there is no unanimous definition of scope, but lists 4 areas where infallibility is undisputed: theological conclusions, dogmatic facts, canonization of saints, moral doctrines.

As for source of infallibility, there is: scripture as defined by council of Trent, pope when speaking ex cathedra, and ecumenical councils. Ecumenical councils are those, where catholics from all over the world are represented and reach common decision, and pope supports it. Curiously 1st Vatican Council is listed among them (see Catholic Encyclopedia on Councils), so either wikipedia is probably wrong on this point, or Catholic Encyclopedia is, or I am missing something.

Primary data from Vatican council here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.htm

Quote:

13. For the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward not as some philosophical discovery capable of being perfected by human intelligence, but as a divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be faithfully protected and infallibly promulgated.

9. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

Joan of Bark · 07-11-2009, 08:15 PM

Keep in mind that orthodox Catholics claim that the concept of infallibility dates back to Peter, but was not stated explicitly until Vatican I.

I also believe (although I can't find the citation right now) that the only papal statement made ex cathedra -- that is, infallibly -- since Vatican I was in regards to Mary's immaculate conception.

andrewcriddle · 07-12-2009, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Keep in mind that orthodox Catholics claim that the concept of infallibility dates back to Peter, but was not stated explicitly until Vatican I.

I also believe (although I can't find the citation right now) that the only papal statement made ex cathedra -- that is, infallibly -- since Vatican I was in regards to Mary's immaculate conception.

No, the definition of the Immaculate Conception was before Vatican 1. You may be thinking of the 20th century definition of the Assumption of Mary.

Andrew Criddle

07-11-2009, 01:48 PM	#1
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	Catholic church inerrancy Did catholic church ever declare its inerrancy (by some decree, council, or something)? If so, when and where for the first time? I mean inerrancy of church, not inerrancy of bible.

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07-11-2009, 02:00 PM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Not quite the way science does things!

07-11-2009, 02:01 PM	#4
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	Oh, it is "infallibilty" that's why I couldn't find anything by googling. Thanks!

07-11-2009, 08:15 PM	#9
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Keep in mind that orthodox Catholics claim that the concept of infallibility dates back to Peter, but was not stated explicitly until Vatican I. I also believe (although I can't find the citation right now) that the only papal statement made ex cathedra -- that is, infallibly -- since Vatican I was in regards to Mary's immaculate conception.

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