Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 02-22-2008, 01:39 PM

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

This recent view that the Tyre prophecy was a failure seems to be a result of "Higher Criticism" of bible texts.

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Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Not really. All it really requires is the application of common sense. Tyre was supposed to be utterly wiped out and never rebuilt yet it still exists to this very day.

The rather obvious flaws in claiming the prophecy was referring to events that have still yet to occur have already been pointed out to you several times but you have offered nothing to rebut them.

At the very least, this suggests you recognize that the prophecy has not been fulfilled but the idea that it was always supposed to refer to events thousands of years in the future is simply pathetic.

It's not pathetic, if you take into consideration that prophecies weren't always meant to be fullfilled at single points in time but can be fulfilled along multiple points in time. Of course the skeptic denies that this is possible so dismisses this possiblity a priori. However if you seek to attack Christianity you should at least make an attempt to understand how prophecy is fulfilled along multiple points in time. Note Luke 4

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And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district. 15 And He began teaching in their synagogues and was praised by all.
16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18 “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Yeshua was quoting Isaiah 61 however he stopped reading half way through verse 2 which states:

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And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.
4 Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins,
They will raise up the former devastations;
And they will repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.

Obiously 2000 years ago there was no day of vengeance however according to Christian Theology this will occur in when Yeshua returns thus fulfilling the prophecy. In the same way the Tyre prophecy will be fulfilled before your very eyes.

Ben C Smith · 02-22-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

In the same way the Tyre prophecy will be fulfilled before your very eyes.

Let us assume for a moment that predictions can be fulfilled at millennial and even longer intervals. Would you at least agree that it is not at all obvious on a natural reading of the text that anybody but Nebuchadnezzar was supposed to fulfill the Tyre prophecy?

Ben.

arnoldo · 02-22-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

In the same way the Tyre prophecy will be fulfilled before your very eyes.

Let us assume for a moment that predictions can be fulfilled at millennial and even longer intervals. Would you at least agree that it is not at all obvious on a natural reading of the text that anybody but Nebuchadnezzar was supposed to fulfill the Tyre prophecy?

Ben.

Yes of course it is not obvious to natural reading. Scripture clearly states the wisdom of God appears to be foolishness to the carnal mind. However if you are to criticize Christian Theology you should take this pattern of dual prophecy fulfillement into consideration and then attack it as absurd. Another example of dual prophecy is the prophecy that Elijah will come before the day of the Lord. Note the following scriptures:

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Malachi 4:
Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. 6 “He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”

John the Baptist fulliflled this prophecy in part 2000 years ago.

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Matthew 11
As these men were going away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John, “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 “But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ palaces! 9 “But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and one who is more than a prophet. 10 “This is the one about whom it is written,
‘BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.’
11 “Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 “From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. 13 “For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 “And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. 15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

However according to Christian Theology Elijah may return bodily before the day of the Lord. Again if there is no resurection then all christians are fools according to Paul

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Luke 9

Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. 33 And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not realizing what he was saying. 34 While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”

DrewDiggler · 02-22-2008, 03:28 PM

Tyre was Nebuchadnezzar's main target. If it were just the land based towns he would've left after they were destroyed. He seiged for 13 years ! This was clearly not for mopping up purposes.

A righteous God wouldn't blame the descendents of Tyre for the supposed sins of their ancestors. You should at least pick a righteous God to follow. How are you supposed to feel good about yourself when you barrack for the blood of innocents ?

The fact that a compensatory prophesy was provided is evidence that it was accepted at the time that the original prophesy failed. Ezekiel was trying to save face and by his actions was admitting the original prophesy failed.

Shifting prophesy further into the future is just a cheap side-show alley fortune teller trick. And yet this is supposed to be a major league prophet ? No way. Just cheap guessing.

Sheshonq · 02-22-2008, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

It's not pathetic, if you take into consideration that prophecies weren't always meant to be fullfilled at single points in time but can be fulfilled along multiple points in time.

There are two problems with that particular handwave:

1. the text identifies Nebuchadnezzar and the armies of Babylon, so any future fulfillment is not consistent with Ezekiel;

2. I've asked you no less than five times to prove that "postponed fulfillment" is a valid way to interpret any prophecy. Predictably, you run away like a scared rabbit whenever I bring that up.

Amaleq13 · 02-22-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

It's not pathetic, if you take into consideration that prophecies weren't always meant to be fullfilled at single points in time but can be fulfilled along multiple points in time.

I was specifically referring to this prophecy not prophecies in general and every effort 've read in this thread to argue that for this prophecy has been quite pathetic. The prophecy has a clear temporal context and extending its "fulfillment" over two thousand years makes God out to be quite the incompetent nitwit.

Pretty much a lose-lose scenario for you, amigo. Failed prophecy or nitwit deity.

arnoldo · 02-22-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

2. I've asked you no less than five times to prove that "postponed fulfillment" is a valid way to interpret any prophecy. Predictably, you run away like a scared rabbit whenever I bring that up.

Did Yeshua fulfill all of the messianic prophecies in the old testament 2000 years ago? Of course not, the remainder of those prophecies are "postponed fulfillment." Try to understand the theology you are *trying* to attack.

arnoldo · 02-22-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

It's not pathetic, if you take into consideration that prophecies weren't always meant to be fullfilled at single points in time but can be fulfilled along multiple points in time.

I was specifically referring to this prophecy not prophecies in general and every effort 've read in this thread to argue that for this prophecy has been quite pathetic. The prophecy has a clear temporal context and extending its "fulfillment" over two thousand years makes God out to be quite the incompetent nitwit.

Pretty much a lose-lose scenario for you, amigo. Failed prophecy or nitwit deity.

It's not a failed prophecy because it was written after the fact, right?

spin · 02-22-2008, 06:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Amaleq13

There is no "spin" involved as far as I can see.

That's because I haven't been involved in this thread for a while.

spin

Sheshonq · 02-22-2008, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

2. I've asked you no less than five times to prove that "postponed fulfillment" is a valid way to interpret any prophecy. Predictably, you run away like a scared rabbit whenever I bring that up.

Did Yeshua fulfill all blah blah blah

BZZZT. Doesn't work.

I asked you to prove that postponed fulfillment was a valid way to interpret prophecy. And what did you do instead? You brought up another scenario where you want to invoke postponed fulfillment.

That's circular reasoning and is rejected. Offering another example where you want to invoke postponed fulfillment does not prove that what you're doing is valid. You have to prove the validity first, before you can use that principle in EITHER the Tyre situation or messianic prophecies.

Not that it will help you with Tyre anyhow, since the actual agent of destruction is named by Ezekiel - given that fact, postponed fulfillment isn't appropriate here anyhow.

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Try to understand the theology you are *trying* to attack.

I understand far more about the theology I am attacking than you do, as evidenced by the fact that I've mopped the floor up with you multiple times already.

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02-22-2008, 03:28 PM	#384
DrewDiggler Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Superstition void Posts: 378	Tyre was Nebuchadnezzar's main target. If it were just the land based towns he would've left after they were destroyed. He seiged for 13 years ! This was clearly not for mopping up purposes. A righteous God wouldn't blame the descendents of Tyre for the supposed sins of their ancestors. You should at least pick a righteous God to follow. How are you supposed to feel good about yourself when you barrack for the blood of innocents ? The fact that a compensatory prophesy was provided is evidence that it was accepted at the time that the original prophesy failed. Ezekiel was trying to save face and by his actions was admitting the original prophesy failed. Shifting prophesy further into the future is just a cheap side-show alley fortune teller trick. And yet this is supposed to be a major league prophet ? No way. Just cheap guessing.

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