Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jakejonesiv · 03-19-2013, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Except, Jake, that there is not a SHRED of evidence of any texts used or written by a fellow named Marcion OR his followers other than in the speculative gymnastics of some people based on biased Church writers.
There is not a SHRED of evidence that the current NT is a response to a Marcion canon. So why do people continue pushing it?

And what EVIDENCE is there of texts used by Marcion considering the fact that conventional wisdom tells us that one Justin Martyr lived in the SAME TOWN AND TIME as Marcion but says NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING, about any texts of Marcion, including anything called a Marcionite gospel or epistles of anyone including someone named Paul??????????

I get you confused with aa5847. Or maybe its the other way around.

aa5874 · 03-19-2013, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

What???

You are now proposing a big black hole of over 320 years where you do not know what happened! See, this is what you get when you start making stuff up off the cuff.

Is there anything you can add to that? Would you like to go for 500 years where you don't know what happened?

Jake

Your response is the sort of nonsense I detest.

Why can't you even repeat what I have written??

Why do you persist in twisting my actual statements??

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Effectively, there is a BIG BLACK HOLE of at least 150 years c 30 -180 CE for the Pauline writings.

If you cannot even acknowledge my position then please refrain from mentioning my post.

I cannot at this time argue for a Big Black Hole for the Pauline letters up to 350 CE based on the FACT that Pauline letters [ P 46] have been RECOVERED and DATED by Palaeography to the mid 2nd-3rd century.

Please, refrain from your propaganda. Please refrain from mis-representing my position.

My arguments are EXTREMELY solid and cannot be overturned based on the present available existing evidence.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_46

Quote:

Papyrus 46 (in the Gregory-Aland numbering), designated by siglum 46, is one of the oldest extant New Testament manuscripts in Greek, written on papyrus, with its 'most probable date' between 175-225..............P46 contains most of the Pauline epistles, though with some folios missing. It contains (in order) "the last eight chapters of Romans; all of Hebrews; virtually all of 1–2 Corinthians; all of Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians; and two chapters of 1 Thessalonians. All of the leaves have lost some lines at the bottom through deterioration."[3]....

My arguments are well supported by ACTUAL RECOVERED DATED NT manuscripts.

jakejonesiv · 03-19-2013, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

but it's no longer your thread. once some establishes a thread it becomes the property so to speak of everyone that participates here. it's not like i am the guy in the mailroom bringing up a plan for greater office efficiency to the CEO. we're all equals here and I think I've finally got the right answer

Of course! No offense was intended. You are the epitome of FRDB.

stephan huller · 03-19-2013, 04:16 PM

I will take that as an insult. Good luck with that Marcion thing. When you finish that you might want to try understanding Jewish history exclusively from Mein Kampf and the Protocols of Zion.

jakejonesiv · 03-19-2013, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I will take that as an insult. Good luck with that Marcion from Tertullian's Latin recycling of stuff from Irenaeus's and Theophilus's Greek, all of which was written from the bitterest hatred.

NO! NO! No insult. Please do not blame me for not being smart enough to comprehend your discovery immediately. I will study quite dilegently.

:frown::sadyes:

Jake

stephan huller · 03-19-2013, 04:27 PM

I just don't understand the point of taking what the Church Fathers say about Marcion and trying to reconstruct 'Marcion' like it was a giant historical Lego set. I understand why scholars do that. They don't care about Marcion. He's an afterthought in their pursuit of the true Church. But I don't get Marcionophiles who do that. Surely the idea that this leads nowhere must have crept into your consciousness. A caricature is only going to get you to outer surface of something. It's like trying to understand native Americans through assembling an exhaustive list of sports jerseys.

jakejonesiv · 03-19-2013, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I cannot at this time argue for a Big Black Hole for the Pauline letters up to 350 CE based on the FACT that Pauline letters [ P 46] have been RECOVERED and DATED Palaeography to the mid 2nd-3rd century.

OK, you have modified your position after doing some research on P46.

Thanks,
Jake

Duvduv · 03-19-2013, 05:28 PM

Is that in lieu of a response to a challenge to academic orthodoxy, Jake?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Except, Jake, that there is not a SHRED of evidence of any texts used or written by a fellow named Marcion OR his followers other than in the speculative gymnastics of some people based on biased Church writers.
There is not a SHRED of evidence that the current NT is a response to a Marcion canon. So why do people continue pushing it?

And what EVIDENCE is there of texts used by Marcion considering the fact that conventional wisdom tells us that one Justin Martyr lived in the SAME TOWN AND TIME as Marcion but says NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING, about any texts of Marcion, including anything called a Marcionite gospel or epistles of anyone including someone named Paul??????????

I get you confused with aa5847. Or maybe its the other way around.

jakejonesiv · 03-19-2013, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I cannot at this time argue for a Big Black Hole for the Pauline letters up to 350 CE based on the FACT that Pauline letters [ P 46] have been RECOVERED and DATED by Palaeography to the mid 2nd-3rd century.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_46

Quote:

Papyrus 46 (in the Gregory-Aland numbering), designated by siglum 46, is one of the oldest extant New Testament manuscripts in Greek, written on papyrus, with its 'most probable date' between 175-225..............P46 contains most of the Pauline epistles, though with some folios missing. It contains (in order) "the last eight chapters of Romans; all of Hebrews; virtually all of 1–2 Corinthians; all of Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians; and two chapters of 1 Thessalonians. All of the leaves have lost some lines at the bottom through deterioration."[3]....

Dear aa5874,

I have studied what you have written here, and I agree with the direction you have taken. You have abandoned the 350 CE date for the Pauline epistles because P46 dates musch earlier than that. I agree.

Now your source dates P46 to between 175 CE and 225 CE. These are your dates. Those are the dates that you now accept. These dates correspond pretty well to the dates of the works of Irenaeus and Tertullian respectively. If, as you now assert, the Pauline epistles existed at this time, there is really no reason to deny that Irenaeus and Tertullian (or someone writing in their names) had them at this time also.

Best Regards,
Jake Jones IV

aa5874 · 03-19-2013, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I cannot at this time argue for a Big Black Hole for the Pauline letters up to 350 CE based on the FACT that Pauline letters [ P 46] have been RECOVERED and DATED Palaeography to the mid 2nd-3rd century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

OK, you have modified your position after doing some research on P46.

Thanks,
Jake

Why do you persist in your blatant propaganda??

You very well know that I made references to the dating of P 46 almost 1 year ago or longer.

I have NOT modified my position it is you who have now reversed yourself.

You have merely exposed that you are NOT credible.

My position is Extremely Solid and well supported by ACTUAL RECOVERED Dated NT Manuscripts.

There is a BIG BLACK HOLE of at least 150 years c 30 -180 CE for the Pauline writings

My position is WELL-RESEARCHED--WELL-SUPPORTED and cannot be overturned based on the present existing evidence.

No Amateur--No Scholar can successfully argue against my position.

The Pauline letters were composed AFTER c 180 CE and BEFORE c 350 CE

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03-19-2013, 04:16 PM	#564
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I will take that as an insult. Good luck with that Marcion thing. When you finish that you might want to try understanding Jewish history exclusively from Mein Kampf and the Protocols of Zion.

03-19-2013, 04:27 PM	#566
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I just don't understand the point of taking what the Church Fathers say about Marcion and trying to reconstruct 'Marcion' like it was a giant historical Lego set. I understand why scholars do that. They don't care about Marcion. He's an afterthought in their pursuit of the true Church. But I don't get Marcionophiles who do that. Surely the idea that this leads nowhere must have crept into your consciousness. A caricature is only going to get you to outer surface of something. It's like trying to understand native Americans through assembling an exhaustive list of sports jerseys.

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