Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yummyfur · 03-14-2006, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

How do we know that no wall was destroyed during the fighting on the mainland, is that a historically verifiable fact or a valid assumption based upon the premise that the "daughter-villages" had no walls? Do we have any archaeological evidence of these mainland villages?

I don't know of any historical source that says Tyre's walls were breached by the seige, other than using Ezekial's prophesy. I'm not sure of the archeology or presense of walls on the mainland, but I assume they existed. As far as archeological evidence of walls being breached is concerned, evidence would be difficult to judge as Shalmaneser V besieged Tyre only 140 years earlier, Sargon II finishes the siege after the mainland portion was taken and Tyre surrenders, this makes it fairly clear that the mainland had walls, and that if it was overtaken, Tyre would soon surrender, as there was no good source of fresh water on the island. Sennacherib also besieged Tyre in 701 and took only the mainland portion, Tyre surrendered and he succesfully installed an Assyrian puppet king.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

I don't this this is a forgone conclusion. Biblical fundamentalists are typically satisfied with any scenario that is "possible" and it seems, as far as I can tell, that the mainland was successfully attacked and likewise could have produced "some" plunder.

Sure but then Ezekial would be wrong about there being no plunder, he is wrong either way. Besides the mainland portion was not uninhabited afterwords, even if I thought that it was taken, which I don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

This seems clear to me as well, but not to the person I am debating with. He considers the mainland portion as "Old Tyre" because that is how Josephus referred to it. He thinks that there is Old Tyre, Island Tyre AND Daughter-towns and villages.

Firstly "the old city" or "Old/Ancient Tyre" is a general euphemism for Tyre in general, used by several ancient writers, this had to do with it's great antiquity. With that said, do you know where in Josephus he mentions that the mainland portion is called Old Tyre, as I have just searched through his works, and though I found many references to Tyre and even the siege, I can't find any that talk about the mainland being "Old Tyre".

Richbee · 03-14-2006, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

If Andrew Jackson made a prediction that New Orleans would one day fall and then 190 years later Katrina hit, would that be a significant prophecy? How many cubit inches of soil or concrete must be blown around until New Orleans at time-1 would be so different that it ceases to be the same?

Poor analogy.

Quote:

Modern Tyre is the 4th largest city in Lebanon: http://tyros.leb.net/tyre/

“Tyre today is a bustling, sprawling town. It was declared a 'World Heritage' site in 1979 by a UNECO decree (Resolution 459),” (http://www.lcps-lebanon.org/pub/brev...br5.html#cases) Biblical references to it still mention how its population relied on Jewish grain as it had during Solomon’s time (Acts 12:20; see also Mark 7:24, Mark 7:31, Acts 21:3 and 7, Matt. 15:21, and Mark 3:8), Crusaders used it extensively during the Middle Ages and it even has concerns of being too urbanized and built up to this day. At what moment do you believe that this city was destroyed, never to be rebuilt again?

Ha! The empty ruins are noted! What a city?

The city will not be inhabited or rebuilt (vss. 20-21).

Alexander sold almost all of Tyre’s inhabitants into slavery, so there are were no more citizens of Tyre.

What is today called "Tyre" is not in the same place and in no way, shape or form ressembles the glory that was the Kingdom of Tyre.

Richbee · 03-14-2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Richbee is quite good at embarrassing himself. Historically, kingdoms rising and falling has been the rule, not the exception. In addition, many ancient cities were never rebuilt. Other than "the Bible says so," Richbee does not have any evidence at all that the Tyre prophecy was written before the events, and that the version of the prophecy that we have today is the same as the original version. It is interesting to note that by the time that God finally got even with the island settlement when Alexander defeated it, the inhabitants against whom the prophecy had been made against had been dead for centuries.

What evidence do you have for when Ezekiel authored or spoke his prophesy?

BTW, the Bible doesn't mention any "island settlement", or "island city".

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1675

TySixtus · 03-14-2006, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

Poor analogy.

Whoa, sorry to interrupt...

In what conceivable way was his analogy poor? If anything, it knocked the bottom out of your argument. It was the single most powerful analogy I've ever read concerning prophecy. I'm going to use it from now on, to prove how absolutely ridiculous the whole "propehcy" paradigm really is.

And even if -if- you can prove that the destruction of Tyre did occur, you aren't one iota closer to proving that it was the work of YHWH, or of any other supernatural being.

Frankly, I'm amazed that Christians even buy the prophecy line nowadays. I'm amazed us skeptics even have to refute it. As far as I'm concerned, is as anachronistic as demons being transplated in to pigs. Anyone who supports the idea of a valid "prophecy" should be laughed off the internets.

Ty

Richbee · 03-14-2006, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TySixtus

Whoa, sorry to interrupt...

In what conceivable way was his analogy poor? If anything, it knocked the bottom out of your argument. It was the single most powerful analogy I've ever read concerning prophecy. I'm going to use it from now on, to prove how absolutely ridiculous the whole "propehcy" paradigm really is.

And even if -if- you can prove that the destruction of Tyre did occur, you aren't one iota closer to proving that it was the work of YHWH, or of any other supernatural being.

Frankly, I'm amazed that Christians even buy the prophecy line nowadays. I'm amazed us skeptics even have to refute it. As far as I'm concerned, is as anachronistic as demons being transplated in to pigs. Anyone who supports the idea of a valid "prophecy" should be laughed off the internets.

Ty

Lots of Luck Pal!

ROTFLMAO!

TySixtus · 03-14-2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

ROTFLMAO!

You do this a lot, apparently. Make sure you stretch beforehand. You don't want to pull a hammy.

Ty

Spanky · 03-14-2006, 07:23 PM

No doubt. You come here with all these affirmations yet with nothing of substance. I don't say much in these here threads because I don't have anything of substance to add. Either you should refute what the man said or don't respond at all!

Richbee · 03-14-2006, 08:12 PM

Yawn.

Farrell Till refuted each and every year of his The Skeptical Review

http://www.tektonics.org/tsr/tsrpages.html

Jack the Bodiless · 03-15-2006, 02:16 AM

Richbee:

We have had several long threads about Tyre recently. The "prophecy" has been thoroughly defeated, every time. You have a lot of catching-up to do.

Quote:

The original Kingdom of Tyre was destroyed and is no more.

The prophecy referred to physical destruction: Tyre would be "scraped clean" and would "never be found again". This failed. Also, Nebby failed to conquer the "original kingdom" as prophesied.

Quote:

The original City and it's glory was destroyed and never restored, and nor was any city rebuilt in the same place. What some might call "Tyre" today is not in any any shape or form to be compared with the great city of the Old Testament.

Incorrect. Modern Tyre is in exactly the same place as old Tyre. Part of it is now a preserved archaeological site, but the rest has been buried under the modern city, and the northern port of ancient Tyre is still in use.

Quote:

The city of Tyre was one of the most prominent commercial cities in the Mediterranean in ancient times.

Today, nothing of its supremacy remains.

Incorrect. Tyre remained a prosperous town for many centuries, and still is reasonably prosperous.

Quote:

This Prophesy must be compared to external historical accounts, and must be scrutinized for validity. Shortly after Ezekiel prophesied of God's judgment against Tyre, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon laid siege to Tyre. After a thirteen-year siege, Nebuchadnezzar broke down the city gates and found the city virtually abandoned. [Some] Most of Tyre's citizens moved to an island about one-half mile off the mainland, and there they fortified a city.

Incorrect. The island WAS Tyre (which is the Greek form of the Phoenician "Sur", meaning "rock": the rock of the island). It was protected by magnificent walls 150 feet high, which Nebby utterly failed to breach despite a 13-year siege.

Quote:

Alexander sold almost all of Tyre’s inhabitants into slavery, so there are were no more citizens of Tyre.

Incorrect. Some 15,000 people escaped by sea and returned later. Tyre was rebuilt. 18 years later, Tyre held off the Greek general Antigonus for more than a year.

And, by the way, we know all about Robert Turkel (a.k.a. "J. P. Holding") around here. You're not going to impress anyone by citing Tektonics. ANd Farrell Till (like many others) has refuted him many times over: but Robert "No-Link" Turkel doesn't want his readers to find those refutations. Try the Library here. I suggest you begin by working through the Till/Hogan debate:

Farrell Till: Prophecies: Imaginary and Unfulfilled

Matthew Hogan: Till's Errors Concerning Tyre

Farrell Till: Hogan's Errors Concerning Pronouns

Matthew Hogan: A Straw House Amid 10-Foot Waves

Farrell Till: The Romans, Greeks, and So Forth

From Matthew Hogan's capitulation:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Hogan

I have been thinking carefully about the comments you made in response to my article, which dealt with the Tyre "prophecy" (TSR, September/October 1996). Farrell, I agree with you that the Tyre "prophecy" failed miserably.

gregor · 03-15-2006, 06:52 AM

Richbee
Welcome to the forum. However, the level of disputation expected here is higher that bald assertions of victory, links to dismissed apologists, and strings of internet babble.

(Aside - pondering to self: when did syntax and grammar get replaced with gen-X acronyms)

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03-14-2006, 07:23 PM	#17
Spanky Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: US Posts: 1,216	No doubt. You come here with all these affirmations yet with nothing of substance. I don't say much in these here threads because I don't have anything of substance to add. Either you should refute what the man said or don't respond at all!

03-14-2006, 08:12 PM	#18
Richbee Banned Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Falls Church, Virginia Posts: 264	Yawn. Farrell Till refuted each and every year of his The Skeptical Review http://www.tektonics.org/tsr/tsrpages.html

03-15-2006, 06:52 AM	#20
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Richbee Welcome to the forum. However, the level of disputation expected here is higher that bald assertions of victory, links to dismissed apologists, and strings of internet babble. (Aside - pondering to self: when did syntax and grammar get replaced with gen-X acronyms)

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