Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EverLastingGodStopper · 10-18-2007, 07:19 PM

Thanks for the details, Toto, I'll send this back to my correspondents.

EverLastingGodStopper · 10-18-2007, 08:33 PM

Toto, check this detail out.

Quote:

I found the book, and on page 373 it says the following:

"But just as the overriding effect of the Council of Trent (its
pro-Jewish theology of the crucifixion notwithstanding) was the
imposition of rigid Counter-Reformation measures to suppress all
'unbelievers,' including Jews, so even a Jew-protecting pope like Paul
III embraced the era's movement--and machinery--of repression. Popes
had generally opposed the Spanish Inquisition since its inception, but
they had been unable to stop it, or even to temper it. Now, finally, a
pope came to see the necessity of allowing a version of the same
Inquisition to come to Rome. In 1542, Paul III authorized the
establishment there of a Spanish-type Inquisition, which would pursue
the agents of doctrinal impurity who were corrupting the Church from
within. He appointed as its head the fearsomely ascetic Gian Pietro
Caraffa, who had served as a papal nuncio in Spain. 'Were even my
father a heretic,' Caraffa is remembered as saying, 'I would gather
the wood to burn him.' [33]

[and the footnote 33 leads to this reference:
"33. Quoted by Bunson, THE POPE ENCYCLOPEDIA, 264."

So, we have found it attributed to Paul III, Paul IV and Gian Pietro
Caraffa.

Take your pick.

ETA one more:

Quote:

Add to the choices: King Philip II of Spain, who is alleged to have
"exclaimed, while attending a royal auto-da-fe, 'If my own son was a
heretic, I would carry wood to burn him myself.'"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Mar7.html

Toto · 10-18-2007, 11:37 PM

Yes, that is what I read in Constantine's Sword. I think it is significant that Carroll says that Paul IV is "remembered" as saying that, which indicates some uncertainty.

Quote:

So, we have found it attributed to Paul III, Paul IV and Gian Pietro Caraffa.

Gian Pietro Caraffa became Pope Paul IV. While Pope, he went to war with Philip II of Spain.

Atrus · 10-19-2007, 12:09 AM

Not a historian but there was a documentary called 'The Secret Files of The Inquisition' on PBS earlier this year and I remember the quote being attributed to Caraffa. I make some short-hand notes when viewing historical documentaries and this quote was among them as attributed to Caraffa.

It was on a section dedicated to the Venetian Inquisition and the execution of Baldo Lupetino.

Roger Pearse · 10-19-2007, 12:12 AM

I think it's always a good general rule to treat any striking but unreferenced 'quotation' as apocryphal. Particularly those used to smear someone.

Toto · 10-19-2007, 12:25 AM

Popes and anti-Popes compiled by John Wilcock

Quote:

222 Paul IV. b. Naples as Gianpietro Caraffa family; elected 26 May 1555, d. 18 Aug 1559, aged 83. A hardliner who fought the Lutherans with help of the Inquisition, of which he was an ardent fan, he ghettoized the Jews (whom he called "fathers of iniquity and parents of Protestantism") forcing them to wear distinguishing headgear. Anton Henze wrote that Paul was "supposed to be the author of that horrible oath: 'If my own father were a heretic, I would collect the wood with which to burn him'". Calling him "this terrifying old man", S&S described him as "a man of unflinching courage and integrity, robbed of real greatness by a fatal narrowness of vision". Beggars and prostitutes were harassed or jailed, and Paul introduced censorship wth his 1654 bull Dominici gregis establishing the Index of Forbidden Books which included all the works of Erasmus and which, declares the Catholic Fact Book, became "an embarassment to the church".

Backing the French against Spain, Paul sustained a humiliating defeat. His demands for submission from England's new queen, Elizabeth, after the death of Mary Stuart caused that country's final rejection of Roman authority. Unmourned when he died, "popular hatred for him and his family exploded" says ODP and (adds PRW) was followed by insulting comments posted on Rome's Pasquino statue accusing him of cringing before his enemies and being faithless to his friends.

The source may be

The Pope and the world; an illustrated history of the Ecumenical Councils. (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Anton Henze

Find it in a Library

but once again, it is qualified - "supposed to be the author."

But here is another hit for Philip II:

link

Quote:

A second auto followed on October 8, in the presence of Philip himself. Seven men and six women were burnt, and five women were imprisoned for life. The former included Fray Domingo de Rojas, Pedro Cazalla, two other priests, a nun of Santa Clara at Valladolid, and four nuns of Belen; of the latter, three were nuns of Belén. Several of those who were burnt were gagged that they might not speak; but Fray Domingo demanded leave to address the King, and said, "Although I die here as a heretic in the opinion of the people, yet I believe in God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and I believe in the passion of Christ, which alone suffices to save the world, without any other work save the justification of the soul to be with God; and in this faith I believe that I shall be saved." It would seem, however, that only two were burnt alive, Carlos de Seso and Juan Sanchez.

Many isolated cases of heresy are to be found after this, and doubtless the records of others have perished. Leonor de Cisneros, the mother of Herrezuelo, was burnt alive as an obstinate heretic on September 26, 1568 ; several cases of heresy were dealt with at an auto-de-fe at Toledo in 1571, and recent research has found a certain number of other instances elsewhere. As time went on such cases were in increasing proportion of foreign origin. But wherever heresy was discovered it was ruthlessly stamped out. Nor was this merely the work of a few officials. From his retirement at Yuste Charles V adjured his son to carry out the work of repression to the uttermost; and Philip replied that he would do what his father wished and more also. He told Carlos de Seso that if his own son were a heretic, he would himself carry the wood to burn him ; and in this, as in most other things, he was a typical Spaniard. The rage against heresy regarded all learning, all evangelical teaching, with suspicion ; to speak overmuch of faith or of inward religion might be a disparagement of works and of outward religion. Sooner or later most of the learned men of the day were cited on suspicion of heresy, or, if not actually cited, their actions and words were carefully watched. Fray Luis de Leon, poet and scholar, spent nearly five years in the prisons of the Inquisition whilst his works were being examined ; and although he was at length acquitted, his Translation of the Song of Solomon was suppressed, and he again fell under suspicion in 1582. Juan de Avila, Luis de Granada, even St Teresa, and St John of the Cross were accused; and it is said that Alva himself and Don John of Austria were not above suspicion.

There are a lot of bogus quotes on church state separation that are used to "prove" things that are not true. But from what I have read, if this quote is bogus, it still gives a true impression of Pope Paul IV.

Malachi151 · 10-21-2007, 09:34 AM

This quote sounds bogus to me, kind of like the supposed quote of Stalin saying that "You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet."

It sounds to me like something that someone else would say about the Pope, like, "That guy is such a zealot, if his father was a heretic he would have gathered the firewood to burn him himself," or something of that nature.

It sounds very much like words put into someone else's mouth, not something that they would have said themselves.

That doesn't mean that its impossible that he really did write this, but I tend to doubt it.

It is also a fact that there was rabid, and unscholarly, anti-Popery throughout the 17th through early 19th centuries. This was engaged in by Protestants and atheists alike. In truth, there is good reason to doubt anything said about Popes during this time period, as fabrication of quotes and denigration of Popes was widespread, not that it wasn't deserved, but nevertheless a ton of falsehood was printed.

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10-18-2007, 07:19 PM	#11
EverLastingGodStopper Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16,665	Thanks for the details, Toto, I'll send this back to my correspondents.

10-19-2007, 12:09 AM	#14
Atrus Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 230	Not a historian but there was a documentary called 'The Secret Files of The Inquisition' on PBS earlier this year and I remember the quote being attributed to Caraffa. I make some short-hand notes when viewing historical documentaries and this quote was among them as attributed to Caraffa. It was on a section dedicated to the Venetian Inquisition and the execution of Baldo Lupetino.

10-19-2007, 12:12 AM	#15
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	I think it's always a good general rule to treat any striking but unreferenced 'quotation' as apocryphal. Particularly those used to smear someone.

10-21-2007, 09:34 AM	#17
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	This quote sounds bogus to me, kind of like the supposed quote of Stalin saying that "You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet." It sounds to me like something that someone else would say about the Pope, like, "That guy is such a zealot, if his father was a heretic he would have gathered the firewood to burn him himself," or something of that nature. It sounds very much like words put into someone else's mouth, not something that they would have said themselves. That doesn't mean that its impossible that he really did write this, but I tend to doubt it. It is also a fact that there was rabid, and unscholarly, anti-Popery throughout the 17th through early 19th centuries. This was engaged in by Protestants and atheists alike. In truth, there is good reason to doubt anything said about Popes during this time period, as fabrication of quotes and denigration of Popes was widespread, not that it wasn't deserved, but nevertheless a ton of falsehood was printed.

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