Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EverLastingGodStopper · 10-17-2007, 06:48 PM

I got this email from someone in the Atheist Alliance International tonight, seeking the source of a quotation attributed to Pope Paul IV:

Quote:

If my own father were a heretic, I would personally gather the wood to burn him -- Pope Paul IV

So I did a quick google search and came up empty. No original source. My response:

Quote:

Google lists the AAI as one source.

Google found the reference in a Time Magazine article:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...4967-2,00.html

Quote:

Some also wondered whether Montini might not have pondered the lives
of the five strange Pauline Popes who preceded him. The first Paul
(757-67) was a zealous defender of theological orthodoxy who squabbled
endlessly with the Byzantine Emperor on religious problems. The second
(1464-71) was a carnival-loving Renaissance prince who tried to lure
Russian Orthodoxy into union with Rome. The third (1534-49) was a
reformer of sorts who gave his own son and nephews cardinalates, yet
also convoked the great Council of Trent. The fourth (1555-59) was an
unlamented inquisitor, who boasted: "Even if my own father were a
heretic, I would gather the wood to burn him." The fifth (1605-21) was
also a rigid doctrinaire, who fought bitterly with the anticlericals
of his time.

A Canadian website dedicated to Martin Luther also says:

http://www.canadafirst.net/our_herit...her/index.html

Quote:

The world Luther departed was almost unrecognizable from that he had
entered. It was no longer bounded by terrifying sea-monsters --
Magellan had, at the cost of his own life, sketched out the bare bones
of the continents, and Gutenberg's press would spread the liberating
knowledge. Time itself was marked not by tolling church bells, but by
the incessant ticking of innumerable clocks. The measure of the
spiritual realm was less certain; Christendom was riven so
fundamentally that Church reforms at the Council of Trent (1545-1563)
could only ratify differences. The Peace of Augsburg granted freedom
of worship to Protestants in 1555; yet, in the midst of this, Pope
Paul IV (1555-59) said: "Even if my own father were a heretic, I would
gather wood to burn him." No better, was Luther's own February 18,
1546, deathbed prayer: "I thank You for revealing to me Your dear Son,
Jesus Christ, in whom I believe, whom I have preached and confessed,
whom I have loved and praised, yet whom the shameful Pope and all the
godless revile, persecute, and scorn."

Neither article cites a source. It's all over Google but it would
take me a while to find a website with an actual attribution for the
quote. I think someone would have to go to the Library to learn more.

Can any of you biblical historians tell me anything about this alleged quotation and its source? Thank you very much for helping.

Toto · 10-17-2007, 07:32 PM

I located a student paper online that lists this quote and cites James Carroll Constantine's Sword (or via: amazon.co.uk) p. 373.

Carroll says that Caraffa is "remembered" as saying this, and footnotes it to Bunson, The Pope Encyclopedia (or via: amazon.co.uk). (The Library Journal says: "A good Catholic almanac and a papal dictionary are preferred as sources of accurate information. Not recommended.")

A number of credible sources repeat this, and it fits in with the general picture of Caraffa, who was inquisitor-general of the Inquisition under Pope Paul III and later became Pope Paul IV.

I found this thumbnail sketch on a gaming site:

Quote:

Giovanni Pietro Caraffa (1476-1559)
The son of a prominent family from Naples, Caraffa was ambassador to England and Spain under Leo X. He developed a hatred toward the Spanish, who were ruling his native Naples at this time. In 1524, he resigned his church office and helped form the Theatines, a male ascetic order based in northern Italy. Members of this group founded Catholic oratories, missions, and hospitals while dedicating themselves to strict norms of behavior including vows of poverty.

Paul III made Caraffa a cardinal in 1536 and bishop of Naples shortly thereafter. His hatred of the Spanish continued, and he feuded with both Loyola’s Jesuits and Charles V. In 1542, after the failure of the Regensburg Colloquy, Paul III issued a bull forming the Papal Inquisition. Caraffa became inquisitor-general. A man with a violent temper and a firm belief that heretics should be punished severely, Caraffa used this opportunity to unleash a reign of terror on nonbelievers. Protestant and Jewish books were destroyed in mass book burnings. Caraffa pledged: “Even if my own father were a heretic, I would gather the wood to burn him.” In 1555, Caraffa was elected Pope Paul IV, against the wishes of Charles V. His four-year Papacy saw the Papacy at war with Charles’ son Philip. Caraffa issued the first Index of Forbidden Books in 1559, shortly before his death.

Toto · 10-17-2007, 07:47 PM

Where is Bede when you need him?

What is the issue here - the accuracy of the quote? It could very well be apocryphal.

Pope_Paul_IV

Quote:

Carafa was recalled to Rome by the reform-minded Pope Paul III (1534–49), to sit on a committee of reform of the papal court, an appointment that forecast an end to a humanist papacy, and a revival of scholasticism, for Carafa was a thorough disciple of Thomas Aquinas. In December 1536 he was made a cardinal and then Archbishop of Naples. He reorganized the Inquisition in Italy.

.... The strengthening of the Inquisition continued and Paul IV's rectitude meant that few could consider themselves safe by virtue of position in his drive to reform the Church; even cardinals he disliked could be imprisoned.

Paul IV believed in extra ecclesiam nulla salus. In 1555 he issued a canon (papal law), Cum nimis absurdum, by which the Roman Ghetto was created; Jews were then forced to live in seclusion in a specified area of the rione Sant'Angelo, locked in at night, and he decreed that Jews should wear a distinctive sign, yellow hats for men and veils or shawls for women. ...

EverLastingGodStopper · 10-17-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

What is the issue here - the accuracy of the quote? It could very well be apocryphal.

Toto, thanks for looking into this, what should I tell my correspondent? Can we be sure that this was something Pope Paul IV really said? Can we narrow it down to when and where it might have been said?

EverLastingGodStopper · 10-17-2007, 08:25 PM

Someone else told me:

Quote:

I find it attributed also to PP #III rather than PP #IV.

Also,
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=8&gl=us
gives as reference: James Carroll's Constantine's Sword, 2001 (373). I
have the book around here somewhere. I will look for it.

The mystery deepens. If the quote is bogus or even unverifiable then I may recommend to AAI that they remove it from their site.

Toto · 10-17-2007, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EverLastingGodStopper

Someone else told me:

Quote:

I find it attributed also to PP #III rather than PP #IV.

Also,
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=8&gl=us
gives as reference: James Carroll's Constantine's Sword, 2001 (373). I
have the book around here somewhere. I will look for it.

I saw the attribution to Paul III; I assumed it was an understandable error, since Caraffa might well have said it as an agent of Paul III before he became Pope.

The link is the same source I used: Carroll is a reputable source, but his footnote goes to a non-scholarly work.

Quote:

The mystery deepens. If the quote is bogus or even unverifiable then I may recommend to AAI that they remove it from their site.

If true, this quote is one of the least of Paul IV's sins.

The Catholic League has a rebuttal of Constantine's Sword here and they do not challenge the quote, and try generally to limit the damage that Paul IV has done to the church's reputation.

If you are going to clean up that page, check this out:

Quote:

What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! -- Pope Leo X

Or I can give you Jon Nelson's email address, and you can ask him.

EverLastingGodStopper · 10-18-2007, 05:14 AM

Thanks Toto, but the last thing I need is another new project. I was hoping to get at the source of this particular alleged quotation, but I was hoping to rely on the BC&H scholars for information, since such research is a bit beyond me.

I appreciate your help and will share any advice you have for me (and the AAI).

Toto · 10-18-2007, 12:02 PM

I've emailed Jon, and might get an answer back. If I do, I will update this. But there are so many bogus quotes in the world and on the internet, that I wouldn't hold out any great hope for this one.

EverLastingGodStopper · 10-18-2007, 05:04 PM

Thanks, Toto. I got another puzzle piece today:

Quote:

In case anyone is still interested, the source I have tells me the
quote is in "The Faith," by Brian Moynahan, p. 440, who says Paul IV
wrote it, so it's most likely a letter, possibly a papal bull - but
it seems a little too personal for a bull. According to Moynahan's
description, Paul was quite capable of writing such a thing, being a
fanatic about hunting heretics.

Toto · 10-18-2007, 07:12 PM

This looks like a very interesting book - but it is by a journalist whose first priority is a good story, and who doesn't give its source.

The Faith: A History of Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

This mammoth book offers a proficient survey of the checkered history of Christianity from its origins to the 21st century. In an engaging voice, journalist Moynahan (The Saint Who Sinned) narrates the story of this upstart Mediterranean religious sect as it developed from a band of ragged disciples with no place to call home to a sophisticated organization with a well-defined priestly hierarchy and often magnificent buildings. He discusses the usual cast of characters from Jesus and Paul to Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Wesley and Pope John Paul II. He argues that the impulse to convert those outside of Christianity is central to the development of the faith, but uses the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition to demonstrate how this impulse sometimes got out of hand. . . .

Quote:

Moynahan, a writer for a variety of British newspapers and the author of the well-respected biography of Rasputin, The Saint Who Sinned, understands that the history of Christianity is not all about piety. With more than 100 startling photographs, illustrations, and drawings, he presents an unconventional and sensational chronology that reveals how Christianity has often been its own worst enemy. The story begins, dramatically enough, with Jesus on the cross, lamenting God's absence, and ends after 766 pages with a cutting statement: "Christianity's self-inflicted wounds still fester." In between, readers are exposed to every ugly event of Christianity imaginable: Roman persecution, Constantine's conquest of the church, heresy, Islamic invasions, slavery, crusades, inquisitions, the Bible as a lethal weapon, persecution by the Reformers, witch trials, conquistadors, persecution of missionaries, revolutions, fights between religions, and the African slave trade. Moynahan's latest is bloody, exciting, masterfully written, and recommended for all libraries.

The reference is at page 440, and is not footnoted.

So I think we are back where we started.

One thing that Paul IV did write is the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul IV, 15th February 1559 (Roman Bullarium Vol. IV. Sec. I, pp. 354-357)

which contains this:

Quote:

. . . a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff, who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. . . . Our desire has been to fulfill our Pastoral duty, insofar as, with the help of God, We are able, so as to arrest the foxes who are occupying themselves in the destruction of the vineyard of the Lord and to keep the wolves from the sheepfolds, lest We seem to be dumb watchdogs that cannot bark and lest We perish with the wicked husbandman and be compared with the hireling.

. . .

We also consider it proper that those who do not abandon evil deeds through love of virtue should be deterred therefrom by fear of punishment; . . ..

Hence, by this Our Constitution which is to remain valid in perpetuity, in abomination of so great a crime (than which none in the Church of God can be greater or more pernicious) by the fullness of our Apostolic Power, We enact, determine, decree and define (since the aforesaid sentences, censures and penalties are to remain in efficacious force and strike all those whom they are intended to strike) . . .

Notably, Google Books has from The New American Cyclopaedia: A Popular Dictionary of General Knowledge (or via: amazon.co.uk) (1962) By George Ripley, Charles Anderson, at p 241, a similar quote from Philip II of Spain to someone about to be burned as a heretic, that if it were his own son he would "fetch the wood to burn him." Paul IV, of course, could not be admitted to have a son, so his father was substituted.

I suspect this quote is apocryphal, but it seems to represent Paul IV's actual thinking.

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10-18-2007, 05:14 AM	#7
EverLastingGodStopper Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16,665	Thanks Toto, but the last thing I need is another new project. I was hoping to get at the source of this particular alleged quotation, but I was hoping to rely on the BC&H scholars for information, since such research is a bit beyond me. I appreciate your help and will share any advice you have for me (and the AAI).

10-18-2007, 12:02 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I've emailed Jon, and might get an answer back. If I do, I will update this. But there are so many bogus quotes in the world and on the internet, that I wouldn't hold out any great hope for this one.

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