Freethought & Rationalism Archive

2-J · 08-03-2010, 04:24 AM

In Bulgaria, apparently.

Video on the BBC:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10849211

Text writeup:- http://www.sofiaecho.com/2010/08/02/...ulgaria-report (and yes, this article does stupidly use a painting of John the Apostle as an illustration)

PhilosopherJay · 08-03-2010, 08:05 AM

What can one say about this fantastic discovery?

This provides definite proof that since the fall of communism, Bulgarian science has advanced backward and has now reached the year 1500.

It might also represent a new low in fact checking for the BBC.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2-J

In Bulgaria, apparently.

Video on the BBC:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10849211

Text writeup:- http://www.sofiaecho.com/2010/08/02/...ulgaria-report (and yes, this article does stupidly use a painting of John the Apostle as an illustration)

stephan huller · 08-03-2010, 08:09 AM

Apparently somebody needs to attract tourists to prop up their ailing economy. What's really funny is that they were always finding body parts of John the Baptist (especially his head) throughout the ages. It's all Julian's fault!

Huon · 08-03-2010, 09:21 AM

In 817, Pippin I of Aquitaine, a grandson of Charlemagne, received a relic which was said to be the head of John the Baptist. This relic was triumphally brought to Angeriacum, which is now Saint Jean d’Angely, near la Rochelle.

Toto · 08-03-2010, 10:30 AM

At least the BBC put scare quotes around 'found.'

"More tests will be done as part of the verification process." What tests? I liked the suggestion in the comments that "a much more scientific approach, than carbon dating, would be building a hotel and doing statistical analysis of tourist response."

However, this does look like a very interesting archaeological find of a 5th or 6th century Byzantine church built on top of a Roman temple. Too bad they have to pimp it with the remains of John the Baptist.

Toto · 08-03-2010, 10:46 AM

Interview with Professor Popkonstantinov

Quote:

Kazimir Popkonstantinov: Today, 28 July, at 13:30 during the study of the altar of the temple, which is from the early Byzantine era, from the first half of 5th century, and not the temple of St John the Baptist; we found a reliquary, which is always located under a pylon, on which is placed the Holy Throne.

Focus: Can you explain something about it, please?

Kazimir Popkonstantinov: Relics are always placed in the reliquary, in most of the cases - the relics of the saint, to whom the temple dedicated. In this case, unfortunately, we do not know for sure whose these relics are. If the temple is from the 5th century, and as a first temple lying on a Thracian settlement and probably a Thracian Sanctuary, which was dedicated to the Apollo deity, we can assume that probably this temple has been dedicated to St John the Baptist. If this turns out to be true, we could say that these are parts from St John the Baptist’s relics. But before the reliquary is opened we can not say this with certainty.

...

Focus: How does the finding look like?

Kazimir Popkonstantinov: The shape of the reliquary is very similar to a sarcophagus from the ancient era. Its dimensions are 20cm long, 10cm high and 10cm wide. These dimensions suggest that probably there is another reliquary in the temple. It is very similar to others, especially the one from Dzhanavar Tepe in Varna, which is from the same period, and if you remember a marble reliquary was found, when it was opened there was a silver one and inside the silver there was golden one.

Sounds about as accurate as the tourist survey.

But surely tourists would rather see gold and silver and marble abd Byzantine architecture or a Roman Temple to Apollos, instead of dubious human remains.

Toto · 08-03-2010, 11:42 AM

more details

Quote:

Further tests on the fragments are due to be carried out. But Popkonstantinov is convinced the relics belong to John the Baptist because of a Greek inscription on the reliquary referring to June 24, the date when Christians celebrate John the Baptist’s birth, according to the website of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church.

....

The reliquary is made of alabaster and dates from approximately the middle of the 5th century, Popkonstantinov told reporters. The southern Black Sea coast was then part of the Byzantine Empire, ruled from Byzantium, now Istanbul in Turkey.

Toto · 08-03-2010, 11:51 AM

OK - Bulgarians are not all that gullible.

Bulgarian Archaeologists Agitated over Relics of St John the Baptist

Quote:

Bulgarian media have published several opinions of archaeologists wishing to remain anonymous saying that the authorities were too fast to declare that the relics found in Sozopol actually belonged to St. John the Baptist.

...

Bulgaria’s Culture Minister Rashidov has urged calm over the discovery. Diaspora Minister and renowned historian Bozhidar Dimitrov, however, has expressed absolute certainty in the fact that the relics found on the St. Ivan Island belonged to St. John the Baptist. He has pointed to an inscription on the marble sarcophagus holding the relics as the greatest evidence for their origin.

“The other archaeologists are shaken by wild envy of their colleague, Professor Kazimir Popkonstantinov. He is a rarely lucky man. It is very seldom that one would find an inscription, and in archaeology the inscription is considered the most authentic proof,” stated Dimitrov, who is a former Director of the Bulgarian National History Museum and a native of Sozopol.

The inscription in question found on the reliquary states that “some time in the 5th century a man named Toma transferred the holy relics exactly on the birthday of St. John the Forerunner.”

...

Bulgarian Minister Urges Calm over St John the Baptist Archaeology Find

Quote:

Bulgaria’s Culture Minister Vezhdi Rashidov has called upon the media not to speculate over the recent archaeological discovery of relics of St. John the Baptist in the Black Sea town of Sozopol.

“The find near Sozopol is very engaging and pleasant. But we have to wait for the results from the tests. Emotional statements are nice but one should be careful with them. Take me, for example. When I found that we are going to have 25 000 square meters for a museum in Sofia, I exclaimed that this will be the “Bulgarian Louvre,” Rashidov stated Tuesday when asked about the alleged relics of St. John the Baptist.

...

Dimitrov believes that Sozopol can become a “Second Jerusalem” because the local church St. George already has a piece of the Holy Cross, and relics of St. Andrew.

andrewcriddle · 08-03-2010, 12:47 PM

I think we should distinguish between the claim that these relics were regarded in the 5th century as those of John the Baptist (which seems plausible) and the quite different claim that these relics genuinely are those of John the Baptist (which seems most unlikely).

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 08-05-2010, 06:27 PM

Balkan Travellers

Quote:

While the experts aren’t questioning Popkonstantinov’s professionalism, they say conclusions should only be made after all the necessary examinations have been carried out. Even after further analysis, the find could be dated, but there would be no proof that the remains did in fact belong to one of the founders of Christianity, they added.

The archaeologists explain this, as well as other announcements of sensational finds from recent years, with the fact that it is much easier to find additional finances if you discover something unique and big. As the debates were going on, Dnevnik reported that Popkonstantinov’s team announced that a part of the saint’s heel was discovered in the remains.

Meanwhile, the Bulgarian government announced today that it has decided to allocate additional funds for the renovation of the St. George Church will host the recently discovered relics...

08-03-2010, 04:24 AM	#1
2-J Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 179	Remains of St John the Baptist 'found' In Bulgaria, apparently. Video on the BBC:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10849211 Text writeup:- http://www.sofiaecho.com/2010/08/02/...ulgaria-report (and yes, this article does stupidly use a painting of John the Apostle as an illustration)

08-03-2010, 09:21 AM	#4
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	The true relic of JtB In 817, Pippin I of Aquitaine, a grandson of Charlemagne, received a relic which was said to be the head of John the Baptist. This relic was triumphally brought to Angeriacum, which is now Saint Jean d’Angely, near la Rochelle.

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08-03-2010, 08:09 AM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Apparently somebody needs to attract tourists to prop up their ailing economy. What's really funny is that they were always finding body parts of John the Baptist (especially his head) throughout the ages. It's all Julian's fault!

08-03-2010, 10:30 AM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	At least the BBC put scare quotes around 'found.' "More tests will be done as part of the verification process." What tests? I liked the suggestion in the comments that "a much more scientific approach, than carbon dating, would be building a hotel and doing statistical analysis of tourist response." However, this does look like a very interesting archaeological find of a 5th or 6th century Byzantine church built on top of a Roman temple. Too bad they have to pimp it with the remains of John the Baptist.

08-03-2010, 12:47 PM	#9
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	I think we should distinguish between the claim that these relics were regarded in the 5th century as those of John the Baptist (which seems plausible) and the quite different claim that these relics genuinely are those of John the Baptist (which seems most unlikely). Andrew Criddle

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