Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Atheos · 11-16-2005, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Hi Clarice – I consider sin capable of separating a man from God.

Hi John A Broussard -

Quote:

Right you are. The hundreds of millions of Chinese used to regularly read Isaiah. To say nothing of the Mayas, Australian Aborigines, ancient Egyptians, Numidians, Laplanders, etc. They knew he was coming.

I have no answer to this, maybe someone else does. Okay, you are better at history than me, but it surprises me that someone would worry more about others (dead ones at that) before considering his own status before God.

It would seem that there are a great many things about which believers in one particular god or another are unable to produce a suitable answer. The problem here is that people have invented literally thousands of god-myths over the centuries. It is my considered opinion that not one of these myths have any apparent advantage over any of the others. If your particular god expects to be worshipped your god has an obligation to show in some fashion that legends about it are not mythical. As an example, Yahweh supposedly proved his superiority over Baal by sending fire down from heaven to consume a burnt offering at the behest of Elijah. Similarly, Zeus demonstrated his superiority over Typhon by hurling thunderbolts, striking him with an adamantine sickle and eventually burying him under Mount Etna, which still occasionally belches fire spit forth from the monster buried below.

Each of these stories are recorded in ancient documents, and at one time each of them have been believed by many devout religious people. Both of them make extrordinary claims. Neither offer a shred of evidence, nor do either appear to be duplicable.

-Atheos

Clarice O'C · 11-16-2005, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

My words above apply to my own situation, which I have considered with extreme care, of that you can be sure. I trust that God will judge justly, but that is little of my business. However, some will be saved by faith. The appearance of Jesus was prophesied – they knew he was coming. Isaiah is full of it.

That's for sure. :devil3:

Isaiah speaks of ISRAEL. Not Jesus.

Harumi · 11-16-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

I have no answer to this, maybe someone else does. Okay, you are better at history than me, but it surprises me that someone would worry more about others (dead ones at that) before considering his own status before God.

Although this wasn't directed at me, perhaps I shall answer why a person would worry more about the dead than about himself.

Let's say supposedly, that the answer to the question of those millions who have never heard of your god are living in heaven under your beliefs. If that's the case, this god is clearly not evil, or at least tries not to be. This gives us time to think on whether or not such a god is worship worthy, although if this scenario were to occur, I think such a being would readily forgive a person who thought things carefully and chose not to believe due to an honest mistake.

Now, if those millions are currently burning in hell, then the question of goodness or justice is pointless, as such an action is, as far as I'm concerned, incredibly evil. Not only would I never worship such a god (assuming this being exists), I can't even guarantee that I won't get tossed into hell along with them even if I did choose to believe. He's ready to send people who never had a chance to hell, what's stopping him from sending those who think they're saved? An evil being would find that mightily amusing I think.

Helpma, you keep insisting that we have doubts, or are worried about hell. I doubt any atheist arguing with you here has any such thoughts. We're arguing over something intellectual (since we do not believe in hell, we certainly aren't worrying about those dead millions), and have about as much emotional commitment to it as you would to the Easter Bunny.

I have little to no doubts on the existence of your supposed god. Stop trying to say that we do. We know ourselves better than you do.

And if there is an atheist here who has doubts, speak up, or forever hold your peace.

John A. Broussard · 11-16-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarice O'C

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

My words above apply to my own situation, which I have considered with extreme care, of that you can be sure. I trust that God will judge justly, but that is little of my business. However, some will be saved by faith. The appearance of Jesus was prophesied – they knew he was coming. Isaiah is full of it.

That's for sure. :devil3:

OOOh---nasteee!

Diogenes the Cynic · 11-16-2005, 12:20 PM

Hell, as a place of eternal torment after death, is not in the Bible. This discussion has cropped up here before. The following is a brief summation of my own which I posted in this thread last year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

There are three words in the Bible which are commonly translated as "Hell" in the bible.

Sheol
Gehenna
Hades

The first one, Sheol, was the name for an underworld similar to Hades. In Jewish eschatology, Sheol was only a temporary sort of holding tank until judgement day. Everybody went to Sheol, not just bad people. It was believed that on the last day, God would physically resurrect all the dead people and judge them. The good people would get eternal life (which was conceived as literal immortality in a physical body) and the bad people would be annihilated in Gehenna.

Gehenna was the Valley of Hinnon, southwest of Jerusalem, which was a garbage dump and a disposal site for animal carcasses. It was also thought to have been a site for human sacrifice by ancient Canaanites (making it cursed bu God) and was an occasional, ignoble dumping site for the bodies of criminals. People used to burn fires there pretty much continuously (eternal flames) in an effort to destroy the mountains of garbage and carcasses.

So because Gehenna was literally a God-forsaken, fiery pit that stank of sulphur and corpses and crawled with maggots and worms "that never died," it came to be envisioned as the final destination for the unrighteous on judgement day. It was also a figurative way to speak of a dishonorable death.

Most of the instances where Jesus is translated as speaking of "hell" he is speaking of Gehenna and he is talking about it in terms of his culture's eschatology. It was not an otherworldly underground, nor was it eternal. It was a place for annihilation only.

The last word, Hades, is used in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man but this is actually just a Greek translation of Sheol. In the parable, it says the rich man went to "flames" and Lazarus went to "the side of Abraham."

This is not Heaven and hell but two separate parts of Sheol. After Palestine became Hellenized, it influenced their conception of Sheol to the point that they started to imagine different parts for different folks like the Greeks had with Hades. Good people went to the "Bosom of Abraham," and bad people got some sort of temporary punishment.

It has to be remembered, though, that Sheol was not eternal. Everybody was going to be resurrected and judged eventually, so no torment lasted forever.

There was no concept of eternal Hell in 1st century Judaism and there is no such concept described anywhere in the New Testament. Every single instance that is commonly understood as such is completely explained in terms of Jewish eschatological and after-life traditions.

John A. Broussard · 11-16-2005, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Hell, as a place of eternal torment after death, is not in the Bible. This discussion has cropped up here before. The following is a brief summation of my own which I posted in this thread last year.

You must be talking about the OT only.

The NT is saturated with hell, though its eternal nature isn't clearly specified.

Diogenes the Cynic · 11-16-2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

You must be talking about the OT only.

The NT is saturated with hell, though its eternal nature isn't clearly specified.

No. I'm talking about the NT as well. The NT talks about Gehenna and Hades but not Hell.

B.S. Lewis · 11-16-2005, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harumi

I find that rather amazing and skeptical. Is what they say true? Any scripture to counter their arguments?

Yes.

Matt 3:12
Matt 5:29
Matt 7:13
Matt 8:12
Matt 10:28
Matt 13:30-50
Matt 22:13
Mark 9:43-48
Luke 3:17
Luke 16:23
2 Thess 1:9
2 Peter 2:4
Jude 1:6, 23
Rev 9:1-2
Rev 14:10-11
Rev 19:20
Rev 20:10
Rev 21:8

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

The NT is saturated with hell, though its eternal nature isn't clearly specified.

Several of the above versed specify that it is eternal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

No. I'm talking about the NT as well. The NT talks about Gehenna and Hades but not Hell.

I'm pretty sure Hell is an English word only, so naturally it wouldn't be used in the Greek if that is the case. The King James translators used it to translate Hades, Gehenna, Sheol, and Tartarus.

Diogenes the Cynic · 11-16-2005, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.S. Lewis

Yes.

Matt 3:12
Matt 5:29
Matt 7:13
Matt 8:12
Matt 10:28
Matt 13:30-50
Matt 22:13
Mark 9:43-48
Luke 3:17
Luke 16:23
2 Thess 1:9
2 Peter 2:4
Jude 1:6, 23
Rev 9:1-2
Rev 14:10-11
Rev 19:20
Rev 20:10
Rev 21:8

They use the words Hell, Hades and Gehenna, specify that it is eternal, and make clear that it is conscious torture--the whole deal.

They use only the words Hades and Gehenna, not hell, and they do not specify that either is eternal.

Wayne Delia · 11-16-2005, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

You're not ashamed of a gospel where its divine inspirer orders the killing of an entire nation--except for the virgin babies reserved for raping by the conquering soldiers?

I am ashamed.

That'd be in Numbers 31, Hebrews vs. Midianites. It goes a little further in 1 Kings 15:1-3, Hebrews vs. Amalekites - divine inspirer orders the killing of an entire nation, period. A Hebrew general, King Saul, was punished and demoted for failing to carry out God's order to the letter by allowing the Amalekite king to be taken alive as a hostage. Moral of the story: it is more important to follow God's orders exactly than it is to worry about committing genocide on an entire nation of enemies.

WMD

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