Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 08-06-2010, 07:53 AM

Hi Stephan,

Good point. There is certainly a lot of debate about Jesus and Christ being separate characters in early Christianity.

Warmly,

Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

It's because the Christ resurrected from the tomb wasn't Jesus. Read Irenaeus's many statements on this with regards to his heretical opponents belief in this idea but especially this one related to Secret Mark (at least according to FF Bruce):

Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified.[AH iii.11.7]

I could cite all the different passages where Irenaeus describes the heretical application of this formula to various scenes (i.e. the enthronement) but that would take us too far afield.

Great thread, Jay!

PhilosopherJay · 08-06-2010, 10:06 AM

Hi spamanham,

Yes, if Jesus does not look like Jesus, then anybody might be Jesus. This sounds very catholic and democratic.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

I would say it's because the catholicizing movement that created the gospels as we know them wanted to appeal to all the various messianic cults and their stories. The simplest way to do that is to have Jesus be a spiritual cuttlefish. It allows all the false messiahs to be the 1 true messiah. Christianity is not the only cult to have devised this concept. It seems to be a staple of reincarnation/resurrection type cults.

PhilosopherJay · 08-06-2010, 10:09 AM

Hi Doug,

Perhaps.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

I have a theory, but I would like to hear other people's theories on why Jesus is not recognizable when resurrected?

I think the authors were trying to make a point about people who don't regard "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" as a cogent apologetic argument.

PhilosopherJay · 08-06-2010, 10:13 AM

Hi Transient,

I think all the problems in the world can be explained by imagining a God who is really, really dumb.

Still, as with all God hypotheses, it explains nothing because it explains everything.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

God hadn't done many resurrections at that stage and forgot to get a photo to work from and just had the smelly old carcass and the bones.
He did his best from memory but it's fading fast these days so it wasn't a real good job - still he got the guy to do a few tricks like passing thru walls and that kind of stuff and it seemed to work on most of them.
Just gotta hope he backs up his data now and then I guess otherwise you might miss out when it comes time.

stephan huller · 08-06-2010, 10:22 AM

Hi Jay

I think I am going to start a separate thread about John being recognized as having a special rank among the disciples, as the "gospel secret" where all, some or most cryptic references are about his leadership role in the post-Resurection Church. The idea appears in Origen and Ephrem primarily but I think it is related to an underlying relationship between Tatian's (or possibly Justin's) Diatessaron and Secret Mark.

I think your discussion is perfect just the way it is!

mountainman · 08-06-2010, 09:36 PM

G'Day Philosopher Jay,

Very thought provoking responses from all around the ball park. Looking forward to your theory --- you have obviously given this matter some thought.

FWIW here are the 2nd and 3rd instances in "TAOPATTA" in which the author presents the apostles as not recognising (Jesus in the figure of) Lithargoel ...

Quote:

As we discussed the robbers on the road, whom we evaded, behold Lithargoel, having changed, came out to us.
He had the appearance of a physician, since an unguent box was under his arm, and a young disciple was following him carrying a pouch full of medicine.
We did not recognize him.
Peter responded and said to him, "We want you to do us a favor, because we are strangers, and take us to the house of Lithargoel before evening comes."
He said, "In uprightness of heart I will show it to you.
But I am amazed at how you knew this good man.
For he does not reveal himself to every man, because he himself is the son of a great king.
Rest yourselves a little so that I may go and heal this man and come (back)."
He hurried and came (back) quickly.
He said to Peter, "Peter!"
And Peter was frightened, for how did he know that his name was Peter?
Peter responded to the Savior, "How do you know me, for you called my name?"
Lithargoel answered, "I want to ask you who gave the name Peter to you?"
He said to him, "It was Jesus Christ, the son of the living God. 10
He gave this name to me."
He answered and said, "It is I!
Recognize me, Peter."
He loosened the garment, which clothed him - the one into which he had changed himself because of us - revealing to us in truth that it was he.
We prostrated ourselves on the ground and worshipped him.

This seems to indicate he was clothed differently.
Because he wore different clothes, the apostles failed to recognise him.
Toto's description of the apostles as "boneheads" is applicable to TAOPATTA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Peter,

Thanks for reminding me of the "The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles," this is indeed another resurrection appearance, where Jesus is not recognized

Quote:

And I, Peter, inquired about the name of this city from residents who were standing on the dock. A man among them answered, saying, "The name of this city is Habitation, that is, Foundation [...] endurance." And the leader among them holding the palm branch at the edge of the dock. And after we had gone ashore with the baggage, I went into the city, to seek advice about lodging.

A man came out wearing a cloth bound around his waist, and a gold belt girded it. Also a napkin was tied over his chest, extending over his shoulders and covering his head and his hands.

I was staring at the man, because he was beautiful in his form and stature. There were four parts of his body that I saw: the soles of his feet and a part of his chest and the palms of his hands and his visage. These things I was able to see. A book cover like (those of) my books was in his left hand. A staff of styrax wood was in his right hand. His voice was resounding as he slowly spoke, crying out in the city, "Pearlsl Pearlsl"

I, indeed, thought he was a man of that city. I said to him, "My brother and my friend!" He answered me, then, saying, "Rightly did you say, 'My brother and my friend.' What is it you seek from me?" I said to him, "I ask you about lodging for me and the brothers also, because we are strangers here." He said to me, "For this reason have I myself just said, 'My brother and my friend,' because I also am a fellow stranger like you."

And having said these things, he cried out, "Pearls! Pearls!"

I'll wait for some more responses before giving my theory.

Warmly,

Philsopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Hi Philosopher Jay,

A very interesting question ....

In a word - Dénouement, as a literary ploy to balance and steady the pathos of invincible belief.

The classic example of Dénouement in the christian literature must fall outside the NT Canon and rest within the Nag Hammadi Codex 6, Story number One - the Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles. Here the apostles fail to recognise Jesus (in Lithargoel) on a number of occassions, even after meeting him, and receiving instructions from him on how to get to the mythological city of Nine Gates, where the pearl of priceless wisdom is to be found by anyone who would journey inside the gates of this city. Notably, the apostles tarry at the gates, and do not enter the city. Jesus (if that's who Lithargoel is meant to be) sends them back in disgust.

Gandalf came back from being The Grey to being The White after falling with the Balrog into the abyss. Gandalf looked different and other-worldly because its true that he was a wizard of the highest excalabur. Gandalf fought better - he had big magic.

It clearly appears in retrospect however that Jesus relied upon the Roman Emperor Constantine, as a loyal fighting servant, who would finally have the guts to stand up and fight for his victory over death, Roman taxes and those good-for-nothing Pagan religions.

I will be interested to learn of your theory in this region.

James Brown · 08-06-2010, 11:13 PM

Could it not have been because the resurrected Jesus was actually an impostor?

I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but I'm just throwing it out on the table.

mountainman · 08-06-2010, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

Could it not have been because the resurrected Jesus was actually an impostor?

I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but I'm just throwing it out on the table.

Do you mean an imposter Jewish Logos that was "resurrected"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emperor Julian

Further, as regards the constitution of the state and the fashion of the law-courts, the administration of cities and the excellence of the laws, progress in learning and the cultivation of the liberal arts, were not all these things in a miserable and barbarous state among the Hebrews?

And yet the wretched Eusebius will have it that poems in hexameters are to be found even among them, and sets up a claim that the study of logic exists among the Hebrews, since he has heard among the Hellenes the word they use for logic.

What kind of healing art has ever appeared among the Hebrews, like that of Hippocrates among the Hellenes, and of certain other schools that came after him? [Asclepius!]

Is their "wisest" man Solomon at all comparable with Phocylides or Theognis or Isocrates among the Hellenes? Certainly not.

yalla · 08-07-2010, 04:38 AM

A quick comment.
Wasn't it a common theme in Greek myths that the gods disguised themselves when 'walking on earth' or meeting humans?
Often by taking other forms including animals sometimes with naughty designs on innocent virgins.
Similarly Homer [whoever] has Ulysses being unrecognised by the unwelcome suitors for his wife when he returns to his home, revealing himself just before he kills them all.
I seem to recall his son meeting a god, in human form, just before Ulysses return.

How common a literary theme/device is the unrecognised disguised god in Greek literature?

Doug Shaver · 08-07-2010, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

Could it not have been because the resurrected Jesus was actually an impostor?

I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but I'm just throwing it out on the table.

If we must assume that everything happened just like the gospel authors said it happened, except that we're ruling out any supernatural explanations, then that might be as good a hypothesis as any.

But I don't think we need to make that assumption.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-06-2010, 10:22 AM	#15
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Hi Jay I think I am going to start a separate thread about John being recognized as having a special rank among the disciples, as the "gospel secret" where all, some or most cryptic references are about his leadership role in the post-Resurection Church. The idea appears in Origen and Ephrem primarily but I think it is related to an underlying relationship between Tatian's (or possibly Justin's) Diatessaron and Secret Mark. I think your discussion is perfect just the way it is!

08-06-2010, 11:13 PM	#17
James Brown Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas, U.S. Posts: 5,844	Could it not have been because the resurrected Jesus was actually an impostor? I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but I'm just throwing it out on the table.

08-07-2010, 04:38 AM	#19
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	A quick comment. Wasn't it a common theme in Greek myths that the gods disguised themselves when 'walking on earth' or meeting humans? Often by taking other forms including animals sometimes with naughty designs on innocent virgins. Similarly Homer [whoever] has Ulysses being unrecognised by the unwelcome suitors for his wife when he returns to his home, revealing himself just before he kills them all. I seem to recall his son meeting a god, in human form, just before Ulysses return. How common a literary theme/device is the unrecognised disguised god in Greek literature?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.