Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 05-28-2012, 10:45 PM

But, indeed, these persons rise to such a pitch of folly as to allege that the books which they consider to have been written by Him contain the arts by which they think He wrought those miracles, the fame of which has become prevalent in all quarters. And this fancy of theirs betrays what they really love, and what their aims really are. For thus, indeed, they show us how they entertain this opinion that Christ was the wisest of men only for the reason that He possessed the knowledge of I know not what illicit arts, which are justly condemned, not merely by Christian discipline, but even by the administration of earthly government itself. And, in good sooth, if there are people who affirm that they have read books of this nature composed by Christ, then why do they not perform with their own hand some such works as those which so greatly excite their wonder when wrought by Him, by taking advantage of the information which they have derived from these books?

Nay more, as by divine judgment, some of those who either believe, or wish to have it believed, that Christ wrote matter of that description, have even wandered so far into error as to allege that these same books bore on their front, in the form of epistolary superscription, a designation addressed to Peter and Paul. And it is quite possible that either the enemies of the name of Christ, or certain parties who thought that they might impart to this kind of execrable arts the weight of authority drawn from so glorious a name, may have written things of that nature under the name of Christ and the apostles. But in such most deceitful audacity they have been so utterly blinded as simply to have made themselves fitting objects for laughter, even with young people who as yet know Christian literature only in boyish fashion, and rank merely in the grade of readers.
16. For when they made up their minds to represent Christ to have written in such strain as that to His disciples, they bethought themselves of those of His followers who might best be taken for the persons to whom Christ might most readily be believed to have written, as the individuals who had kept by Him on the most familiar terms of friendship. And so Peter and Paul occurred to them, I believe, just because in many places they chanced to see these two apostles represented in pictures as both in company with Him.550 For Rome, in a specially honourable and solemn manner,551 commends the merits of Peter and of Paul, for this reason among others, namely, that they suffered [martyrdom] on the same day. Thus to fall most completely into error was the due desert of men who sought for Christ and His apostles not in the holy writings, but on painted walls. Neither is it to be wondered at, that these fiction-limners were misled by the painters.552 For throughout the whole period during which Christ lived in our mortal flesh in fellowship with His disciples, Paul had never become His disciple. Only after His passion, after His resurrection, after His ascension, after the mission of the Holy Spirit from heaven, after many Jews had been converted and had shown marvellous faith, after the stoning of Stephen the deacon and martyr, and when Paul still bore the name Saul, and was grievously persecuting those who had become believers in Christ, did Christ call that man [by a voice] from heaven, and made him His disciple and apostle.553 How, then, is it possible that Christ could have written those books which they wish to have it believed that He did write before His death, and which were addressed to Peter and Paul, as those among His disciples who had been most intimate with Him, seeing that up to that date Paul had not yet become a disciple of His at all?

Moreover, let those who madly fancy that it was by the use of magical arts that He was able to do the great things which He did, and that it was by the practice of such rites that He made His name a sacred thing to the peoples who were to be converted to Him, give their attention to this question,—namely, whether by the exercise of magical arts, and before He was born on this earth, He could also have filled with the Holy Spirit those mighty prophets who aforetime declared those very things concerning Him as things destined to come to pass, which we can now read in their accomplishment in the gospel, and which we can see in their present realization in the world. For surely, even if it was by magical arts that He secured worship for Himself, and that, too, after His death, it is not the case that He was a magician before He was born. Nay, for the office of prophesying on the subject of His coming, one nation had been most specially deputed; and the entire administration of that commonwealth was ordained to be a prophecy of this King who was to come, and who was to found a heavenly state554 drawn out of all nations. [Augustine, Harmony of the Gospels 9 - 11]

la70119 · 05-28-2012, 11:33 PM

Steve, there are depictions of jesus raising lazarus from the dead using a magic wand.

Source: sacred-destinations.com

Source: journeywithjesus.net

Source: williamhenry.net

And then there is the jewish tradition that Yeshu the Nazorean was hanged on the Eve of Passover for sorcery and apostasy, and leading the children of Israel astray. And pronouncing the sacred name of YHWH.

la70119 · 05-28-2012, 11:45 PM

Some more...

Source: offthecoastofutopia.blogspot.com

(can't show image) http://www.flickr.com/photos/bstorage/1797472603/

(another image I can't show) http://www.flickr.com/photos/bstorage/1797472175/

source: lost-history.com

la70119 · 05-28-2012, 11:52 PM

A few more...

Source: mythsofchristianity.com

Miracle at Cana:

(an image i can't show) http://www.flickr.com/photos/bstorage/1798317622/

Source: cannabizhuman.biz

Vorkosigan · 05-29-2012, 03:29 AM

la, those are really interesting. Steve that is fascinating. Too bad Augustine is so late. It reminds me of the amulets found that show Jesus as simply another magical name to be invoked.

Scotsguy44 · 05-29-2012, 03:53 AM

Isn't the title of this thread misleading or am I missing where in the cited material, Augustine reports the existence of books on magic written by Jesus to Peter and Paul?

Thanks
Matt

Huon · 05-29-2012, 06:18 AM

for Scottsguy44 :

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller and Augustine

How, then, is it possible that Christ could have written those books which they wish to have it believed that He did write before His death, and which were addressed to Peter and Paul, as those among His disciples who had been most intimate with Him, seeing that up to that date Paul had not yet become a disciple of His at all?

Moreover, let those who madly fancy that it was by the use of magical arts that He was able to do the great things which He did, and that it was by the practice of such rites that He made His name a sacred thing to the peoples who were to be converted to Him, etc ...

Augustine is violent in his opposition against these treatises of sorcery ascribed to Christ. Christ does not need sorcery to perform miracles, hey ?

We can also remember the legend of Simon Magus trying to buy his secrets from Peter (another Simon, BTW).

Scotsguy44 · 05-29-2012, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

for Scottsguy44 :

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller and Augustine

How, then, is it possible that Christ could have written those books which they wish to have it believed that He did write before His death, and which were addressed to Peter and Paul, as those among His disciples who had been most intimate with Him, seeing that up to that date Paul had not yet become a disciple of His at all?

Moreover, let those who madly fancy that it was by the use of magical arts that He was able to do the great things which He did, and that it was by the practice of such rites that He made His name a sacred thing to the peoples who were to be converted to Him, etc ...

Augustine is violent in his opposition against these treatises of sorcery ascribed to Christ. Christ does not need sorcery to perform miracles, hey ?

We can also remember the legend of Simon Magus trying to buy his secrets from Peter (another Simon, BTW).

Yes, that's kind of why the subject heading is misleading, 'ascribed to Christ' is not equal to 'written by Jesus'.

Thanks
Matt

PhilosopherJay · 05-29-2012, 08:06 AM

Great stuff, Stephan. Wonderful collection of pictures, la70119.
I also find this statement by Augustine in "Harmony of the Gospels," quite interesting, "For Rome, in a specially honourable and solemn manner,commends the merits of Peter and of Paul, for this reason among others, namely, that they suffered [martyrdom] on the same day."

This information comes from "The Acts of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul."

This work seems to have been the original ending to Acts of the Apostles, "Acts" cuts off so abruptly before we have a chance to find out what happened to Peter and Paul. In "Acts of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul," we learn how Peter and Paul both came to Rome to battle Simon Magus and suffered martyrdom on the same day under Nero.

Besides the Catholic Church getting its information about the deaths of Peter and Paul in Rome from this work, it appears that Irenaeus gets his idea that Pontius Pilate was governor under Claudius also from this work. Additionally, we may also suppose it to be the basis or model for Eusebius' TF:

Quote:

But if you wish to know, O good emperor, the things that have been done in Judæa about Christ, take the writings of Pontius Pilate sent to Claudius, and thus you will know all. And Nero ordered them to be brought, and to be read in their presence; and they were to the following effect: —

Pontius Pilate to Claudius, greeting. There has lately happened an event which I myself was concerned in. For the Jews through envy have inflicted on themselves, and those coming after them, dreadful judgments. Their fathers had promises that their God would send them his holy one from heaven, who according to reason should be called their king, and he had promised to send him to the earth by means of a virgin. He, then, when I was procurator, came into Judæa. And they saw him enlightening the blind, cleansing lepers, healing paralytics, expelling demons from men, raising the dead, subduing the winds, walking upon the waves of the sea, and doing many other wonders, and all the people of the Jews calling him Son of God. Then the chief priests, moved with envy against him, seized him, and delivered him to me; and telling one lie after another, they said that he was a wizard, and did contrary to their law. And I, having believed that these things were so, gave him up, after scourging him, to their will; and they crucified him, and after he was buried set guards over him. But he, while my soldiers were guarding him, rose on the third day. And to such a degree was the wickedness of the Jews inflamed against him, that they gave money to the soldiers, saying, Say his disciples have stolen his body. But they, having taken the money, were not able to keep silence as to what had happened; for they have testified that they have seen him (after he was) risen, and that they have received money from the Jews. These things, therefore, have I reported, that no one should falsely speak otherwise, and that you should not suppose that the falsehoods of the Jews are to be believed.

While "Acts of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul" did not make it into the New Testament, it is certain that the Catholic hierarchy, as represented by people like Augustine, believed the history it contains.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

sotto voce · 05-29-2012, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Great stuff, Stephan. Wonderful collection of pictures, la70119.
I also find this statement by Augustine in "Harmony of the Gospels," quite interesting, "For Rome, in a specially honourable and solemn manner,commends the merits of Peter and of Paul, for this reason among others, namely, that they suffered [martyrdom] on the same day."

This information comes from "The Acts of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul."

This work seems to have been the original ending to Acts of the Apostles, "Acts" cuts off so abruptly before we have a chance to find out what happened to Peter and Paul. In "Acts of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul," we learn how Peter and Paul both came to Rome to battle Simon Magus and suffered martyrdom on the same day under Nero.

Besides the Catholic Church getting its information about the deaths of Peter and Paul in Rome from this work

Thugs don't get information. They create it.

05-28-2012, 10:45 PM	#1
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Augustine Reports the Existence of Books on Magic Written by Jesus to Peter and Paul But, indeed, these persons rise to such a pitch of folly as to allege that the books which they consider to have been written by Him contain the arts by which they think He wrought those miracles, the fame of which has become prevalent in all quarters. And this fancy of theirs betrays what they really love, and what their aims really are. For thus, indeed, they show us how they entertain this opinion that Christ was the wisest of men only for the reason that He possessed the knowledge of I know not what illicit arts, which are justly condemned, not merely by Christian discipline, but even by the administration of earthly government itself. And, in good sooth, if there are people who affirm that they have read books of this nature composed by Christ, then why do they not perform with their own hand some such works as those which so greatly excite their wonder when wrought by Him, by taking advantage of the information which they have derived from these books? Nay more, as by divine judgment, some of those who either believe, or wish to have it believed, that Christ wrote matter of that description, have even wandered so far into error as to allege that these same books bore on their front, in the form of epistolary superscription, a designation addressed to Peter and Paul. And it is quite possible that either the enemies of the name of Christ, or certain parties who thought that they might impart to this kind of execrable arts the weight of authority drawn from so glorious a name, may have written things of that nature under the name of Christ and the apostles. But in such most deceitful audacity they have been so utterly blinded as simply to have made themselves fitting objects for laughter, even with young people who as yet know Christian literature only in boyish fashion, and rank merely in the grade of readers. 16. For when they made up their minds to represent Christ to have written in such strain as that to His disciples, they bethought themselves of those of His followers who might best be taken for the persons to whom Christ might most readily be believed to have written, as the individuals who had kept by Him on the most familiar terms of friendship. And so Peter and Paul occurred to them, I believe, just because in many places they chanced to see these two apostles represented in pictures as both in company with Him.550 For Rome, in a specially honourable and solemn manner,551 commends the merits of Peter and of Paul, for this reason among others, namely, that they suffered [martyrdom] on the same day. Thus to fall most completely into error was the due desert of men who sought for Christ and His apostles not in the holy writings, but on painted walls. Neither is it to be wondered at, that these fiction-limners were misled by the painters.552 For throughout the whole period during which Christ lived in our mortal flesh in fellowship with His disciples, Paul had never become His disciple. Only after His passion, after His resurrection, after His ascension, after the mission of the Holy Spirit from heaven, after many Jews had been converted and had shown marvellous faith, after the stoning of Stephen the deacon and martyr, and when Paul still bore the name Saul, and was grievously persecuting those who had become believers in Christ, did Christ call that man [by a voice] from heaven, and made him His disciple and apostle.553 How, then, is it possible that Christ could have written those books which they wish to have it believed that He did write before His death, and which were addressed to Peter and Paul, as those among His disciples who had been most intimate with Him, seeing that up to that date Paul had not yet become a disciple of His at all? Moreover, let those who madly fancy that it was by the use of magical arts that He was able to do the great things which He did, and that it was by the practice of such rites that He made His name a sacred thing to the peoples who were to be converted to Him, give their attention to this question,—namely, whether by the exercise of magical arts, and before He was born on this earth, He could also have filled with the Holy Spirit those mighty prophets who aforetime declared those very things concerning Him as things destined to come to pass, which we can now read in their accomplishment in the gospel, and which we can see in their present realization in the world. For surely, even if it was by magical arts that He secured worship for Himself, and that, too, after His death, it is not the case that He was a magician before He was born. Nay, for the office of prophesying on the subject of His coming, one nation had been most specially deputed; and the entire administration of that commonwealth was ordained to be a prophecy of this King who was to come, and who was to found a heavenly state554 drawn out of all nations. [Augustine, Harmony of the Gospels 9 - 11]

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05-28-2012, 11:33 PM	#2
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	Steve, there are depictions of jesus raising lazarus from the dead using a magic wand. Source: sacred-destinations.com Source: journeywithjesus.net Source: williamhenry.net And then there is the jewish tradition that Yeshu the Nazorean was hanged on the Eve of Passover for sorcery and apostasy, and leading the children of Israel astray. And pronouncing the sacred name of YHWH.

05-28-2012, 11:45 PM	#3
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	Some more... Source: offthecoastofutopia.blogspot.com (can't show image) http://www.flickr.com/photos/bstorage/1797472603/ (another image I can't show) http://www.flickr.com/photos/bstorage/1797472175/ source: lost-history.com

05-28-2012, 11:52 PM	#4
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	A few more... Source: mythsofchristianity.com Miracle at Cana: (an image i can't show) http://www.flickr.com/photos/bstorage/1798317622/ Source: cannabizhuman.biz

05-29-2012, 03:29 AM	#5
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	la, those are really interesting. Steve that is fascinating. Too bad Augustine is so late. It reminds me of the amulets found that show Jesus as simply another magical name to be invoked.

05-29-2012, 03:53 AM	#6
Scotsguy44 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Scotland Posts: 59	Isn't the title of this thread misleading or am I missing where in the cited material, Augustine reports the existence of books on magic written by Jesus to Peter and Paul? Thanks Matt

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