rlogan

Psalms 22:16 and Zacaraiah 12:10 are used as prophetic visions of Jesus' crucifixion. In looking into the uses of "pierce" I find little support for this.

Of course, nowhere in the OT do we find crucifixion. So one must grasp what one can.

In a word search for "pierce" we find these references:

1 Timothy ch 6:10

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Luke 2: 35

Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Sirach 35:17

The prayer of the humble pierceth the clouds: and till it come nigh, he will not be comforted; and will not depart, till the most High shall behold to judge righteously, and execute judgment.


2 Maccabees 11:9

Then they praised the merciful God all together, and took heart, insomuch that they were ready not only to fight with men, but with most cruel beasts, and to pierce through walls of iron.

Numbers 24:8

God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.

Job 30:17:

My bones are pierced in me in the night season: and my sinews take no rest.

Job 40:24

He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

2 Kings 18:21

Now, behold, thou trustest upon the staff of this bruised reed, even upon Egypt, on which if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so is Pharaoh king of Egypt unto all that trust on him.

Judges 5:26

She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.

Judith 16:12

The sons of the damsels have pierced them through, and wounded them as fugatives' children: they perished by the battle of the Lord.

Zechariah, 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


Psalms 22:16

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

John 19:34

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

John 19: 36-37
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.


Given the OT uses of the word "pierced" I see no support for the prophesy use in crucifixion. When they wish to reference a nail piercing as in Judges 5:26 it is explicit. It seems in each case to be fairly clear whether we are speaking of arrows, swords, or figuratively.

But John is most telling: He adds the bit about the soldier piercing his side in order to fulfill the prophesy. I don't think you're allowed to double-count meanings. That this little tidbit is missing from the other accounts is direct evidence of "scripture mining" in construction of the Messiah story.

Apparently modern apologists are willing to stretch things even more than the authors of the myth by using "pierce" to mean crucifixion. But they have to overlook John to do it.

- rlogan. Institute for Composite Studies.

GakuseiDon

I'm not sure what the problem is here. It isn't prophecy, but typology. Events in the OT "hint" at events in the NT, rather than prophecise. Thus, when the OT says that "God has called Israel out of Egypt", this hints at the event that occurs in the NT, when Jesus's family return from Egypt. It isn't strictly speaking a prophecy.

Similarly, piercing "hints" at crucifixion.

rlogan

Hi GD.

Here at the ICS our lead internet scholar has taken the view that the "out of Egypt" prophesy mining is what necessitated Mary and Joseph taking that bogus mileage award trip - with the fictional "slaughter of the innocents" story as cover.

The problem with the "hinting" about piercing is that apparently whoever wrote GJohn didn't get the hint - because he makes up the story of the soldier piercing Jesus with the sword in order to fulfill the prophesy.

Rlogan - Institute for Composite Studies.

GakuseiDon

Well, could be I suppose. Still, as Freud supposedly once said, "Sometimes a banana is just a banana".

Given that Psalm 22 says that "they pierced my hands and feet", then maybe the soldier is recorded as piercing Jesus with a sword because it was something that actually happened?

Amlodhi

Hello GakuseiDon,

As rlogan and others have pointed out many times over, pick and choose quote mining is wretched methodology.

Psalms 69, for instance contains some of these hints:

Ps. 69:21 "They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar."

Hey, Ps. 69:21 hints that Jesus was given vinegar on the cross.

Ps 69:5 "O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee."

Hey, verse 5 in the very same psalm hints that Jesus was sinful and foolish.

See how it works?

Incidentally:

Psalm 22 doesn't say they "pierced" my hands and feet. See "interesting translation" thread below for details.

Namaste'

Amlodhi

Kilgore Trout

Here is a quote from the typology page that GakuseiDon gave....


Are they kidding? How can they say that with a straight face? So now anything that lasted 3 days is some kind of "typology" of jesus being in the tomb. Of course we'll just ignore all the things that lasted for 4 days or 5 days, etc. That is why the "typology" from the OT doesn't make sense. There are a lot of words in the OT, a few of them are going to have things in common with jesus' life. Not to mention the idea that they made up the stories about jesus in order to coincide with the details of the OT.

That's a perfect example of the desperation of christianity. They have to come up with wild theories like this in order to lend some sort of validity to it.

GakuseiDon

Heh? I'm not saying I believe it, but it is an interesting aspect to the development of early Christianity.

rlcjhardesty

"Pierced" is used prophetically, even if you refuse to believe it. Look at the whole verse in context. Crucifixion is not in the OT because it had not yet been invented by the Romans - which is precisely why the verse is prophetic. Note that it says that they pierced His HANDS and FEET. Read further, in Isaiah, you'll find more - the tomb that was purchased by Joseph of Arimathea, soldiers casting lots for His garments, the customary precrucifixion whipping, the fact that He refused to speak to His accusers... All, hundreds of years before the event. Then, read Matthew 27.

Psalm 22
My life is poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax, melting within me. My strength has dried up like sunbaked clay. My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth. You have laid me in the dust and left me for dead. My enemies surround me like a pack of dogs; an evil gang closes in on me. They have pierced my hands and feet.

Isaiah 53
Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God for his own sins! But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on him the guilt and sins of us all. He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people realized that he was dying for their sins – that he was suffering their punishment? He had done no wrong, and he never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man's grave.

Oh yeah... I'm just "verse mining".

spin

Sorry, but this is totally wrong. The Romans didn't invent crucifixion, or at least that referred to in the nt by the Roman word crucifixion. Alexander Jannaeus the Jewish king crucified numerous Pharisees around 90 BCE. Antiochus Epiphanes crucified Jews around 167 BCE. Alexander crucified thousands of Tyrians around 320 BCE. And the Persians also crucified people (if you check out Herodotus).

So it is utter crap that the Romans invented that which is translated in the nt as crucifixion. It had a history of several hundred years before the Romans used it.


spin

Amaleq13

Victims of crucifixion were not pierced through their hands or feet where the weight of the body would tear the victim free but through their wrists and ankles. Shouldn't the Omnipotent One have known this when the author was inspired to write this "prophecy"?

Hey, that's just what the author of Matthew did only the last line would read "Then write Matthew".

The Blue Letter Bible site (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...1-4189.html#16) indicates this verse is not contained in the Septaguint. Anybody know why that might be?

No, you are relying on the verse mining efforts of the Gospel authors who apparently had no other source for the details of their stories.