Freethought & Rationalism Archive

cass256 · 10-05-2005, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Well … someone forgot to tell GJohn!

He thought El and Yahweh were a father and son. –A carry over from Ugarit circa 1200 BC.

The problem I have with Christian writing, is that, since the Jews replaced Yahweh's name with Lord, every place it was written, how do we tell that they did not believe YHWH and EL were the same in Jesus' time? We have to look at the Aramaic? Which came first? the greek or Aramaic writings?

Quote:

I’m not suggesting any of the authors actually believed what they wrote. But it looks to me like the author of GJohn wanted his readers to believe Jesus was Yahweh incarnate.

Yes, to seperate the word from the main God. I do not know that he knew the difference was Yahweh and EL, because of the belief that YHWH was the EL.
But, that may be my ignorance. I will have to go back through John to see if it jumps out at me, now that you've pointed it out.

Jedi Mind Trick · 10-05-2005, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cass256

It says everyone who worshipped the calf was killed. Those who kept their lives had to follow YHWH, there was no other choice. El was also called bull EL. Too bad his people were passive. it got them slaughtered by those who chose to follow Moses. If the tales are true.

It could be that the Yahwhist created this legend as a polemic against existing El worship, correct?
IOW, “If you worship Bull El you’re not a true Israelite and are to be cursed like those who stood against Moses and Yahweh.�?

cass256 · 10-05-2005, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

It looks to me like the character of Satan may have originated with the El-worshippers who did not accept Yahweh into their pantheon. That would explain why Yahweh appears to be Satan: In their opinion, he was.

I am familiar with most facts and opinions concerning Lucifer and the Morning Stars, and I’m not sure where you are going with it, or what your point is. But since you brought it up check this out:

According to KTU 1.23, the story of “Dawn and Dusk,�? Shachar was also a son of El. He had a twin brother named Shalim, whose name might be the basis for Salem, and then Jerusalem. (Meaning "fortress of Shalim")

So if we had to believe all this was true, then we might conclude that the king of Babylon was Yahweh/ Jesus’ nephew!

I no longer have the Ugaritic texts. Just writings about them. Is there a web source to the written texts?

I found a passage that shows agreement that the god called the dawn was Shahar, so the son of the dawn would then be Lucifer/venus?

From the Ugaritic texts also, I always remember how Baal writings were similar to psalms about YHWH, riding the clouds, the mountain as the assembly. It seems to me that at least the seperation between YHWH and Baal is thin.

There is also Elyon, the most high. I always take as being El, but there was an Aramaean Elyon "in the Sefire treaty (KAI 222.A.11)" I would like to know if, there, Elyon was thought to be benevolent, and ever as seperate from EL.
Not that it would pop my baloon if an Elyon reference showed some Baal characteristics. The El/Baal/Yahweh seperation is muddy between religions and peoples.

There is also the story of one Venus god Athar being apointed to the throne of baal, but he did not fit the heights of it and was cast down to rule over earth instead.

so here, at least, a speration between Baal and the shining one. But still of the lucifer like one coming down to rule earth.

cass256 · 10-05-2005, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwater

It could be that the Yahwhist created this legend as a polemic against existing El worship, correct?
IOW, “If you worship Bull El you’re not a true Israelite and are to be cursed like those who stood against Moses and Yahweh.�?

Yep. They had a lot of time on their hands in babylon.

I wonder what the break down of Israel was. Why no Yah?
El, is obvious. Isis Ra El, or Ishtar El. Maybe El's girlfriend was Venus at one point. Venus=Ishtar?

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