Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Loomis · 10-01-2005, 04:08 PM

It alleges:

1) The author understood Yahweh to be one of El’s sons, and subordinate to him.

2) The author portrayed his Jesus character as Yahweh incarnate.

As far as I can tell, this hypothesis answers several questions that are otherwise difficult to answer.

My foremost postulate is that the various OT and NT authors were like us: They did not share a common unified belief system. They did not agree on who El, Yahweh, or Jesus was, or the relationship between them.

Oh yea ... and they frequently misunderstood each other.

Loomis · 10-01-2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

I suspect the underlying message is …

In the beginning was Yahweh, and Yahweh was with El, and Yahweh was an elohim.

The association of ‘Yahweh’ with ‘Word’ is not far fetched. From what I understand most of those “the Angel of the LORD�? verses in the OT can also be translated as “the messenger Yahweh.�? Maybe the author thought that Yahweh was a messenger who delivered messages (to humans using words) from his father El.

Loomis · 10-01-2005, 04:12 PM

Quote:

John 1:2~3

He was with God in the beginning. All things came into existence by him, and apart from him not one thing came into existence.

Yahweh was with El in the beginning. All things came into existence by him, and apart from him not one thing came into existence.

This reconciles a shitload without having to invent a Trinity.

Loomis · 10-01-2005, 04:16 PM

Quote:

John 8:58

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM!�?

Oh look. Jebus be sayin’ dem coy riddles!

Quote:

Exodus 3:14~15

The elohim said to Moses, “I AM that I AM.�? And he said, “You must say this to the Israelites, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’�? The elohim also said to Moses, “You must say this to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh—the elohim of your fathers, the elohim of Abraham, the elohim of Isaac, and the elohim of Jacob—has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my memorial from generation to generation.’

Gosh. What’s that? You say you don’t like that translation of John 8:58?

Quote:

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I have existed before Abraham was born�?

How does that fix anything?

Loomis · 10-01-2005, 04:19 PM

I posted this on another thread …

Quote:

John 12:37~41

Although he had performed so many miraculous signs before them, they still refused to believe in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet would be fulfilled. He said, “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?�? For this reason they could not believe, because again Isaiah said,

“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
so that they would not see with their eyes
and understand with their heart,
and turn to me, and I would heal them.�?

Isaiah said these things because he saw Christ’s glory, and spoke about him.

Isaiah was talking about Yahweh. The things attributed to Jesus in John 12 are the very same things that are attributed to Yahweh in Isaiah 6:10 & 53:1.

Loomis · 10-01-2005, 04:21 PM

Okay. I shot my wad. Have at it. :thumbs:

Zeichman · 10-01-2005, 06:08 PM

I'd reccomend reading some Philo before attacking GJohn's view of the logos.

judge · 10-01-2005, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeichman

I'd reccomend reading some Philo before attacking GJohn's view of the logos.

I would recommend reading the gospel of John 1 in Aramaic .

Flm 0wh Yhwty0 ty4rb
BRESHIT AYTOHI HWA MILTHA
In the Beginning was the Miltha.

How is it that a translator from greek would make such a colossal grmmatical error in the very first verse?

Two masculines verbs linked to a feminine noun!

It jsut gets more and more interestiung though as we read all of John in Aramaic

Loomis · 10-01-2005, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeichman

I'd reccomend reading some Philo before attacking GJohn's view of the logos.

Thanks.

I just googled [Philo John Gospel Yahweh] and there are a bunch of hits - so I’ve got a lot of reading to do.

Evidently Philo thought God had two halves: Theos (the creative power) and Kyrios (the punishing power).

Correct?

Can anyone help me find a commentary on Philo and/ or GJohn where the commentator is aware that Yahweh was portrayed as a son of El in Deut 32 and perhaps elsewhere?

I think these guys might be overlooking something big.

Loomis · 10-01-2005, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

I would recommend reading the gospel of John 1 in Aramaic .

Flm 0wh Yhwty0 ty4rb
BRESHIT AYTOHI HWA MILTHA
In the Beginning was the Miltha.

How is it that a translator from greek would make such a colossal grmmatical error in the very first verse?

Two masculines verbs linked to a feminine noun!

It jsut gets more and more interestiung though as we read all of John in Aramaic

Tell us more about miltha.

Is there a definition for miltha that will bridge the gap between malak (Hebrew for messenger) and logos?

Maybe the original tune went a little like this:

In the beginning was the messenger Yahweh, and the messenger Yahweh was with El, and the messenger Yahweh was a son of El.

10-01-2005, 04:08 PM	#1
Loomis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The recesses of Zaphon Posts: 969	Scrutinize my hypothesis on the Gospel of John It alleges: 1) The author understood Yahweh to be one of El’s sons, and subordinate to him. 2) The author portrayed his Jesus character as Yahweh incarnate. As far as I can tell, this hypothesis answers several questions that are otherwise difficult to answer. My foremost postulate is that the various OT and NT authors were like us: They did not share a common unified belief system. They did not agree on who El, Yahweh, or Jesus was, or the relationship between them. Oh yea ... and they frequently misunderstood each other.

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10-01-2005, 04:21 PM	#6
Loomis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The recesses of Zaphon Posts: 969	Okay. I shot my wad. Have at it. :thumbs:

10-01-2005, 06:08 PM	#7
Zeichman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 562	I'd reccomend reading some Philo before attacking GJohn's view of the logos.

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