Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 07-30-2005, 03:30 AM

http://www.tektonics.org/toons/carriertoon.html

You can tell Holding is being scholarly here, or else he would put in his usual references to doo-doo or bulldada......

Apparently Holding thinks ancient people were too stupid to use levers.

I wonder how the Pyramids were built when ancient people could not even move rocks which were small by comparison.

SwoleMan · 07-30-2005, 04:27 AM

Hmm... I wonder if I would've thought that that cartoon was funny even if I had been a Christian. I seriously doubt it.

Johnny Skeptic · 07-30-2005, 06:06 AM

Gary Habermas conducted a study of scholarly writings regarding Jesus being buried in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb. He said that 75% believe that Jesus was buried in J of A's tomb, and that 25% believe that there is insufficient evidence to make such a claim. Of course Habermas handpicked which scholarly writings to consult, and there are a lot of scholarly writings that he did not consult. Farrell Till basically said that there is a good percentage of scholars who do not believe the Jesus was buried in J of A's tomb. Is there any credible external evidence that the man ever lived? I haven't been able to find any. Even if 75% of all scholars believed that Jesus was most likely buried in J of A's tomb, that would leave 1 chance out of four that the 25% are right, or easily enough for everyone to be agnostic on the issue.

Habermas didn't say how many of his sources were Christians, and how many of the Christians were fundamentalist Christians. It would be quite interesting to have a research study conducted on this issue regarding writings by 10 liberal Christian scholars, 10 fundamentalist Christian scholars, and 10 atheist and agnostic scholars. The results could of course be predicted in advance. The fundamentalist Christian scholars would be most likely to agree with Habermas' 75%, the liberal Christian scholars to a lesser extent, and the atheist and agnostic scholars to an even lesser extent.

In Lee Strobel's 'The Case For Christ,' William Lane Craig says ".......On top of that, the burial story in Mark is so extremely early that it’s simply not possible for it to have been subject to legendary corruption." Craig's argument assumes that Jesus rose from the dead and that anything to the contrary would have been a legend. However, the claim that Jesus rose from the dead has never been adequately established. If Jesus did not bodily rise from the dead, and if I agree with Christians for the sake of argument that stories claiming that he bodily rose from the dead started to circulate soon after he died, then it was the claim that he bodily rose from the dead that was in fact the legend.

Hartke · 07-30-2005, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Gary Habermas conducted a study of scholarly writings regarding Jesus being buried in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb. He said that 75% believe that Jesus was buried in J of A's tomb, and that 25% believe that there is insufficient evidence to make such a claim. Of course Habermas handpicked which scholarly writings to consult, and there are a lot of scholarly writings that he did not consult. Farrell Till basically said that there is a good percentage of scholars who do not believe the Jesus was buried in J of A's tomb. Is there any credible external evidence that the man ever lived? I haven't been able to find any. Even if 75% of all scholars believed that Jesus was most likely buried in J of A's tomb, that would leave 1 chance out of four that the 25% are right, or easily enough for everyone to be agnostic on the issue.

Habermas didn't say how many of his sources were Christians, and how many of the Christians were fundamentalist Christians. It would be quite interesting to have a research study conducted on this issue regarding writings by 10 liberal Christian scholars, 10 fundamentalist Christian scholars, and 10 atheist and agnostic scholars. The results could of course be predicted in advance. The fundamentalist Christian scholars would be most likely to agree with Habermas' 75%, the liberal Christian scholars to a lesser extent, and the atheist and agnostic scholars to an even lesser extent.

In Lee Strobel's 'The Case For Christ,' William Lane Craig says ".......On top of that, the burial story in Mark is so extremely early that it’s simply not possible for it to have been subject to legendary corruption." Craig's argument assumes that Jesus rose from the dead and that anything to the contrary would have been a legend. However, the claim that Jesus rose from the dead has never been adequately established. If Jesus did not bodily rise from the dead, and if I agree with Christians for the sake of argument that stories claiming that he bodily rose from the dead started to circulate soon after he died, then it was the claim that he bodily rose from the dead that was in fact the legend.

This entire argument appears to be argument by popular vote fallacy

Johnny Skeptic · 07-30-2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartke

This entire argument appears to be argument by popular vote fallacy

Actually, only the popular vote among Gary Habermas' handpicked scholars. A poll among only sketpic scholars would surely produce much different results.

Popular vote is not necessarily a bad thing. It is certainly better to have the majority of scholars on your side than the other way around. If 75% of skeptic scholars believed that Jesus was buried in J of A's tomb, I may not automatically agree with them, but I would be more inclined to agree with them than with Habermas' handpicked scholars. What I would like to know is how the 75% arrived at their conclusion. I am not aware of any credible evidence that J of A ever lived. Is anyone aware of such evidence?

07-30-2005, 03:30 AM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	JP Holding's scholarly refutation of The Empty Tomb http://www.tektonics.org/toons/carriertoon.html You can tell Holding is being scholarly here, or else he would put in his usual references to doo-doo or bulldada...... Apparently Holding thinks ancient people were too stupid to use levers. I wonder how the Pyramids were built when ancient people could not even move rocks which were small by comparison.

07-30-2005, 06:06 AM	#3
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	The absurdities of James Holding Gary Habermas conducted a study of scholarly writings regarding Jesus being buried in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb. He said that 75% believe that Jesus was buried in J of A's tomb, and that 25% believe that there is insufficient evidence to make such a claim. Of course Habermas handpicked which scholarly writings to consult, and there are a lot of scholarly writings that he did not consult. Farrell Till basically said that there is a good percentage of scholars who do not believe the Jesus was buried in J of A's tomb. Is there any credible external evidence that the man ever lived? I haven't been able to find any. Even if 75% of all scholars believed that Jesus was most likely buried in J of A's tomb, that would leave 1 chance out of four that the 25% are right, or easily enough for everyone to be agnostic on the issue. Habermas didn't say how many of his sources were Christians, and how many of the Christians were fundamentalist Christians. It would be quite interesting to have a research study conducted on this issue regarding writings by 10 liberal Christian scholars, 10 fundamentalist Christian scholars, and 10 atheist and agnostic scholars. The results could of course be predicted in advance. The fundamentalist Christian scholars would be most likely to agree with Habermas' 75%, the liberal Christian scholars to a lesser extent, and the atheist and agnostic scholars to an even lesser extent. In Lee Strobel's 'The Case For Christ,' William Lane Craig says ".......On top of that, the burial story in Mark is so extremely early that it’s simply not possible for it to have been subject to legendary corruption." Craig's argument assumes that Jesus rose from the dead and that anything to the contrary would have been a legend. However, the claim that Jesus rose from the dead has never been adequately established. If Jesus did not bodily rise from the dead, and if I agree with Christians for the sake of argument that stories claiming that he bodily rose from the dead started to circulate soon after he died, then it was the claim that he bodily rose from the dead that was in fact the legend.

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07-30-2005, 04:27 AM	#2
SwoleMan Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,190	Hmm... I wonder if I would've thought that that cartoon was funny even if I had been a Christian. I seriously doubt it.

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