Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 04-04-2011, 12:02 AM

Quote:

David Elkington’s credibility has been severely undermined by the fact that he hasn’t come forward on his own about Thonemann’s find, and is sharing photos of other codices that are clearly related to the copper ones. His story also changes with each new article.

Additionally, he is omitting from the publicity photos those qualities which pointed to forgery for Thonemann. No Greek writing is being shown. In fact, few of the photos show any kind of writing at all, unlike the earlier photos, and those that do show a much, much more cryptic script, perhaps intended to avoid the kind of embarrassing incident that happened with Thonemann? The changes in the collection also seem to indicate someone altered the plates after Thonemann’s analysis. Is Elkington in on the forgery? He doesn’t appear to be an innocent middleman who believes the codices to be authentic. He didn’t raise a stink when Thonemann told him his copper codex was bogus. Does Elkington stand to profit from the plates? Elkington doesn’t want to sell them, and is playing up that point. If he tried to sell them they could very easily be discovered as fake. However, he does have a book that may soon come out. He’s apparently been trying unsuccessfully to find a publisher. What better publicity could he produce by throwing the media a bone like this? if he’s just trying to sell books, the codices never have to see the light of day. In fact, the more intrigue and mystery he can produce, the more books he can sell. Is it a coincidence that we’re suddenly being told by the Telegraph that he’s been shot at by some Indiana Jones-like brotherhood trying to protect the codices from the world.

stephan huller · 04-04-2011, 01:16 AM

Joel Watts is Satanic (follow link at Daniel's site). We will certainly find out very shortly if these are real comments or some of his usual attempts to discredit people and draw attention to his blog :constern01:

Toto · 04-04-2011, 11:24 AM

Lead Head contains some rather damning comments, which do seem to make some sense of the whole story.

Meanwhile, the wikipedia entry for

Jordan_Lead_Codices has been worked over by a group of bibliobloggers.

stephan huller · 04-04-2011, 12:51 PM

But remember, I have no disrespect for religious people, good souls come in all shapes, sizes, colors, creeds etc. but ...

This has now gone beyond merely proving that the find is a fake. The comments at Joel Watts's blog enter the realm of personal attack. It is a subtle shift but one that many of us have experienced first hand. Let's not forget that these biblioblogging evangelicals have pseudonyms and work together to discredit anyone they feel is attracting a popular audience for alternative explanations of Christian origins.

Is Elkington a loon? Yes, certainly. But where I would just laugh off the episode and watch Elkington self-destruct like Charlie Sheen, there are no Buddhist tendencies among evangelicals. Turn the other cheek is 'old school' apparently. J P Holding, Joel Watts and many others and many other 'identities' on the web like 'NT Wrong,' etc. etc. actively seek out people like myself, Roger Viklund, Neil Godfrey and other participants at this site and say they most ludicrous things I don't care to repeat here. Neil and I have talked about this at length.

The point is that there certainly are forgeries associated with the find and that undoubtedly compromises the discovery and makes it impossible to take seriously. But the fact that it is Joel Watts's site that some poster claiming to be David Elkington's son decides to reveal intimate family secrets is very unusual. Jim West's site is more popular and Davilla's site has been at the forefront of most of the serious investigating.

I don't mean to sound alarmist but there is a reason why atheists, agnostic and people with theories which challenge the status quo post anonymously at sites like this. There is an organized religious cabal which has no other job than to discredit us (apparently they are supported by their wives - a la J P Holding or their children make shoes in sweat shops somewhere). Personal attack against those who 'descredit' Jesus (an eye for an eye) and malign the true message of salvation etc.

I just want to reinforce that this might be Elkington's son but Joel Watts is as dubious a source as Elkington. Maybe these evangelicals hired a private investigator and are putting words in an anonymous poster who claims to be Elkington's son. It could be a reader of Joel Watts blog who shared his dysangelic spirit. The point is that if Morton Smith wasn't safe discovering an original MS in a monastery from an organized campaign to discredit him by these misguided Satanists, people with no academic creditions are sitting ducks.

This is a very unsafe environment to speculate about origins of Christianity especially in the United States of America and especially using your real name.

stephan huller · 04-04-2011, 03:07 PM

An example of a fair-minded evangelical blogging about Elkington (taking out the ball not the man) our own Roger Pearse http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/?p=6339

Toto · 04-04-2011, 06:34 PM

Elkington may be the victim of a fraud rather than the originator, but his lack of qualifications are undoubtedly a part of that.

His interpretation of the codices appears to fit in with the standard Christian view of Jesus. He even said that this find would be the proof of the existence of Jesus. I don't see a motive to tear him down, except for his earlier new age statements.

stephan huller · 04-04-2011, 07:11 PM

I can only speak for myself but there are others too. I never get any attacks from Catholics. But some evangelicals, my God! It starts with their personal faith which is somehow projected back to the earliest Fathers. Origen the Protestant! Then the “truth” is some kind of dogma you just swallow like a pill. Now the Jews are nice (it was a “misunderstanding” that they were Christ killers). The Samaritans are some how 'bad' - don't know why unless because the Jewish scriptures that tell them this.

All of history is developed in this stupid way. I don't want to through it all but this new dogma isn't understood by anybody. Its like an ever changing wave. But those who make these believers doubt even by asking the stupidest questions and bring forward the most implausible of theories and the weakest evidence for any position other than the accepted “vibe” are vilified by these people.

Who could hate Neil Godfrey? They call him 'Vritard' and classify his blog as a 'fringe dwelling conspiracy theorist site.' I kid you not - http://biblioblogtop50.wordpress.com/biblioblogs/ I'm Jewish so being attacked by white people is the only thing that keeps me from being a white person so I always bless those who persecute me (there's a convoluted mix of contradictory references if I ever heard one).

But why the hostility against Neil? I'll tell you why - it is because he exposes their ignorance, that they don't know why they accept the nonsense they force on to other people just by asking questions. I am not likening Elkington to Godfrey or even me - but you have to understand the hostility at the heart of American evangelical movement. There this seething ressentiment du cœur of these people. They hate creativity of any kind. They use God as an excuse but it extends to public television, liberals, the media etc.

I just figure so what? Elkington is misguided. There are lots of misguided people. But why is Joel Watts allowing his site to be used to attack this man on a purely personal level? Like Pearse writes in his blog, his involvement with this is likely purely accidental. He probably did not create the forgery. Have you ever tried to marshal Bedouin? Not likely. They don't take orders well nor do Gypsies, Masai or a host of other semi-nomadic people.

He is a casualty as much as anyone else. Yes, he was trying to get a book deal. Yes he his theories sound stupid. But so what? Do you begrudge the guy who asks the pretty girl at the dance for the next song and gets rejected? You only live once. Live and let live. You're going to have a sad life if all you do is attack other people for being misguided or stupid or wrong about things

But Watts is responsible for allowing his site to be used in this way. Bringing up, encouraging (or inventing) stories about child support payment history, mental illness, disabilities etc. It's ungentlemanly. It should be off limits. But it is the American way now isn't it? Still we are all in control of the comments that appear on our blog and it is the ultimate reflection of the kind of person we are.

stephan huller · 04-06-2011, 12:25 PM

Peter Thonemann interview in the Times today

http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle7173961.ece

Quote:

One can hardly blame the newspapers: no editor could reasonably be expected to resist the combination of Jesus, the Kabbalah, mysterious death threats and a secret code. But it is a bit depressing that no one thought to consult any one of the dozens of British specialists in the field. As the Jewish Chronicle made clear when it originally reported on the find back in early March, those professional scholars who have had sight of these objects have dismissed them as obvious fakes. There are various reasons why we bother to fund research in the arts and humanities and this episode could have been one of them.

But the question of course is does society want to prevent mass delusion especially if money is to be made.

Toto · 04-07-2011, 11:28 AM

Another source for the fake

Quote:

Robert Deutsch sends along this fun fact-

Unaware of it, the faker used a fake coin to fake his fakes: The quadriga on the top left side of the attached cover of the lead “codices” has been copied or impressed with a very famous and common FAKE Medallion of Lucius Verus which one can buy for few cents on the Istanbul bazaar.

(Although maybe the forger was aware, but didn't have the budget for a proper antique.)

Toto · 04-09-2011, 05:44 PM

UNHOLY ROW AS NEW EXPERT CALLS ANCIENT SCROLLS FAKES

Quote:

Dr Peter Thonemann, a specialist in Greek inscriptions and lecturer in ancient history and archaeology at Wadham College, Oxford, says they are fakes that “any expert would see through in five or 10 minutes”.

Archaeologist and biblical scholar, David Elkington believes, however that the 70 lead and copper books, or codices, found in Jordan could be among the earliest Christian documents, predating the writings of St Paul.

Elkington has been reclassified as an archaeologist and biblical scholar. I guess it doesn't take much to be a biblical scholar.

Tom Verenna: the Mona Lisa of Galilee

Paleojudaica

Quote:

Trust me, the mainstream media have been informed about the true status of the fake codices. The lack of coverage is not due to ignorance, it's due to unprofessional indifference. Think about that. When the media report a sensationalist story and it proves to be bogus, they feel no responsibility to inform their readers of the truth. I suppose they might if they think they can get another sensation out of the correct story, but if not, they can't be bothered.

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04-04-2011, 01:16 AM	#132
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Joel Watts is Satanic (follow link at Daniel's site). We will certainly find out very shortly if these are real comments or some of his usual attempts to discredit people and draw attention to his blog :constern01:

04-04-2011, 11:24 AM	#133
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Lead Head contains some rather damning comments, which do seem to make some sense of the whole story. Meanwhile, the wikipedia entry for Jordan_Lead_Codices has been worked over by a group of bibliobloggers.

04-04-2011, 12:51 PM	#134
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But remember, I have no disrespect for religious people, good souls come in all shapes, sizes, colors, creeds etc. but ... This has now gone beyond merely proving that the find is a fake. The comments at Joel Watts's blog enter the realm of personal attack. It is a subtle shift but one that many of us have experienced first hand. Let's not forget that these biblioblogging evangelicals have pseudonyms and work together to discredit anyone they feel is attracting a popular audience for alternative explanations of Christian origins. Is Elkington a loon? Yes, certainly. But where I would just laugh off the episode and watch Elkington self-destruct like Charlie Sheen, there are no Buddhist tendencies among evangelicals. Turn the other cheek is 'old school' apparently. J P Holding, Joel Watts and many others and many other 'identities' on the web like 'NT Wrong,' etc. etc. actively seek out people like myself, Roger Viklund, Neil Godfrey and other participants at this site and say they most ludicrous things I don't care to repeat here. Neil and I have talked about this at length. The point is that there certainly are forgeries associated with the find and that undoubtedly compromises the discovery and makes it impossible to take seriously. But the fact that it is Joel Watts's site that some poster claiming to be David Elkington's son decides to reveal intimate family secrets is very unusual. Jim West's site is more popular and Davilla's site has been at the forefront of most of the serious investigating. I don't mean to sound alarmist but there is a reason why atheists, agnostic and people with theories which challenge the status quo post anonymously at sites like this. There is an organized religious cabal which has no other job than to discredit us (apparently they are supported by their wives - a la J P Holding or their children make shoes in sweat shops somewhere). Personal attack against those who 'descredit' Jesus (an eye for an eye) and malign the true message of salvation etc. I just want to reinforce that this might be Elkington's son but Joel Watts is as dubious a source as Elkington. Maybe these evangelicals hired a private investigator and are putting words in an anonymous poster who claims to be Elkington's son. It could be a reader of Joel Watts blog who shared his dysangelic spirit. The point is that if Morton Smith wasn't safe discovering an original MS in a monastery from an organized campaign to discredit him by these misguided Satanists, people with no academic creditions are sitting ducks. This is a very unsafe environment to speculate about origins of Christianity especially in the United States of America and especially using your real name.

04-04-2011, 03:07 PM	#135
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	An example of a fair-minded evangelical blogging about Elkington (taking out the ball not the man) our own Roger Pearse http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/?p=6339

04-04-2011, 06:34 PM	#136
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Elkington may be the victim of a fraud rather than the originator, but his lack of qualifications are undoubtedly a part of that. His interpretation of the codices appears to fit in with the standard Christian view of Jesus. He even said that this find would be the proof of the existence of Jesus. I don't see a motive to tear him down, except for his earlier new age statements.

04-04-2011, 07:11 PM	#137
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I can only speak for myself but there are others too. I never get any attacks from Catholics. But some evangelicals, my God! It starts with their personal faith which is somehow projected back to the earliest Fathers. Origen the Protestant! Then the “truth” is some kind of dogma you just swallow like a pill. Now the Jews are nice (it was a “misunderstanding” that they were Christ killers). The Samaritans are some how 'bad' - don't know why unless because the Jewish scriptures that tell them this. All of history is developed in this stupid way. I don't want to through it all but this new dogma isn't understood by anybody. Its like an ever changing wave. But those who make these believers doubt even by asking the stupidest questions and bring forward the most implausible of theories and the weakest evidence for any position other than the accepted “vibe” are vilified by these people. Who could hate Neil Godfrey? They call him 'Vritard' and classify his blog as a 'fringe dwelling conspiracy theorist site.' I kid you not - http://biblioblogtop50.wordpress.com/biblioblogs/ I'm Jewish so being attacked by white people is the only thing that keeps me from being a white person so I always bless those who persecute me (there's a convoluted mix of contradictory references if I ever heard one). But why the hostility against Neil? I'll tell you why - it is because he exposes their ignorance, that they don't know why they accept the nonsense they force on to other people just by asking questions. I am not likening Elkington to Godfrey or even me - but you have to understand the hostility at the heart of American evangelical movement. There this seething ressentiment du cœur of these people. They hate creativity of any kind. They use God as an excuse but it extends to public television, liberals, the media etc. I just figure so what? Elkington is misguided. There are lots of misguided people. But why is Joel Watts allowing his site to be used to attack this man on a purely personal level? Like Pearse writes in his blog, his involvement with this is likely purely accidental. He probably did not create the forgery. Have you ever tried to marshal Bedouin? Not likely. They don't take orders well nor do Gypsies, Masai or a host of other semi-nomadic people. He is a casualty as much as anyone else. Yes, he was trying to get a book deal. Yes he his theories sound stupid. But so what? Do you begrudge the guy who asks the pretty girl at the dance for the next song and gets rejected? You only live once. Live and let live. You're going to have a sad life if all you do is attack other people for being misguided or stupid or wrong about things But Watts is responsible for allowing his site to be used in this way. Bringing up, encouraging (or inventing) stories about child support payment history, mental illness, disabilities etc. It's ungentlemanly. It should be off limits. But it is the American way now isn't it? Still we are all in control of the comments that appear on our blog and it is the ultimate reflection of the kind of person we are.

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