Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rhutchin · 01-06-2010, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

You endorse Pascal's Wager, but it is incompatible with Calvinism. You have threatened skeptics on many occasions by claiming that God will punish them, but under Calvinism, threats are irrelevant since salvation is God's choice, not man's choice. If a skeptic named John Smith refuses to accept God, he is not at risk because risk implies choice. Under Calvinism, choice is irrelevant.

I understand Pascal's Wager while many who claim so, do not. That does not mean that I endorse it.

When I tell skeptics like you that God will punish them, I only take that which the Bible says and apply it to them. It is not a threat from me.

If a skeptic named John Smith refuses to accept God, he is not at risk, so what?

Deus Ex · 01-06-2010, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Unconditional Election:

God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

That obviously disagrees with your comment "A person does not have to do anything to be saved except seek God's mercy." As the website says, "God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual." That also means that God does not base His election on anything that humans do.

Rhutchin always argues like an Arminian Christian who believes we have a free choice in what we believe. A true Calvinist believes that there is no free choice--you are picked by God to be saved, or you are damned by God for following your nature. The decision was made before your birth.

If Calvinism is true, then I cannot help but believe the things that I believe because I was predestined to believe them.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-06-2010, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

A person does not have to do anything to be saved except seek God's mercy.

Are you saying that a man can use his free will to choose to seek God's mercy, and as a result God will save him?

Calvinism teaches that the elect cannot resist God. Following that line of reasoning, if God has decided that he will save John Smith, and John Smith does not wish to seek God's mercy at this time, John is not at risk at this time for refusing to seek God's mercy since eventually God will force him to become saved. Thus, what you said does not make any sense.

Calvinism does not teach that human free will choices have anything to do with who God chose to save before the foundations of the world.

Consider the following Scriptures from the NASB:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NASB

Romans 9

8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For (AM)who resists His will?"

20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Those Scriptures contradict your claim that "A person does not have to do anything to be saved except seek God's mercy." The words "have to do" indicate that what a man does can influence God regarding salvation. Calvinism does not teach that, nor does Romans chapter 9.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-06-2010, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

A person does not have to do anything to be saved except seek God's mercy.

That is false, as I reasonably proved in my previous post.

Mageth · 01-06-2010, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

So, do your actions determine whether you are allowed to enter heaven or not?

That's basically it. Those who sin will not be able to enter heaven (with one exception).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

The last sentence seems to contradict this assertion, making it appear that you are "saved" by simply seeking God's mercy regardless of any other actions.

The one exception.

It seems that your actions don't actually count in the equation that determines whether you are allowed to enter heaven or not. Either you ask for God's mercy (regardless of your actions) and get in or you don't ask (regardless of your actions) and don't get in.

rhutchin · 01-06-2010, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

A person does not have to do anything to be saved except seek God's mercy.

That is false, as I reasonably proved in my previous post.

I don't see that you proved anything.

show_no_mercy · 01-06-2010, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Here's some pre-NT speculation about death:

Do not invite death by the error of your life,
nor bring on destruction by the works of your hands;
because God did not make death,
and he does not delight in the death of the living.
For he created all things that they might exist,
and the generative forces of the world are wholesome,
and there is no destructive poison in them;
and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.
For righteousness is immortal.
But ungodly men by their words and deeds summoned death;
considering him a friend, they pined away,
and they made a covenant with him,
because they are fit to belong to his party.

Wisdom of Solomon 1.12-16

Which Paul succinctly said in Romans 6:23--

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And why should I take Paul's word on some concept that is foreign to the Hebrew bible?

rhutchin · 01-06-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

It seems that your actions don't actually count in the equation that determines whether you are allowed to enter heaven or not. Either you ask for God's mercy (regardless of your actions) and get in or you don't ask (regardless of your actions) and don't get in.

This would seem to say that actions make a difference:

Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live (i.e., inherit eternal life).

So, a person can gain eternal life through their actions (and therefore, not need to seek mercy) and if they can gain then it seems they can lose by not doing those actions but different actions (requiring that they seek mercy).

rhutchin · 01-06-2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

A person does not have to do anything to be saved except seek God's mercy.

Are you saying that a man can use his free will to choose to seek God's mercy, and as a result God will save him?

Sure. What is stopping you?

rhutchin · 01-06-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Unconditional Election:

God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

That obviously disagrees with your comment "A person does not have to do anything to be saved except seek God's mercy." As the website says, "God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual." That also means that God does not base His election on anything that humans do.

Rhutchin always argues like an Arminian Christian who believes we have a free choice in what we believe. A true Calvinist believes that there is no free choice--you are picked by God to be saved, or you are damned by God for following your nature. The decision was made before your birth.

If Calvinism is true, then I cannot help but believe the things that I believe because I was predestined to believe them.

I am a true blue Calvinist.

Seems like a copout on your part to say "I cannot help but believe the things that I believe because I was predestined to believe them." You were not predestined to believe anything (suggesting that you don't know that much about Calvinism) and are free to believe whatever you want. What do you not believe that you want to believe? What do you now believe that you have not freely chosen to believe?

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