Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-28-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Any contemporary person who turns to the New Testament for objective information about Jesus is bound to come away feeling queasy. Although early Christians acclaimed truth as a component of holiness and condemned lying as one of the sins they had supposedly overcome, the utterances attributed to Jesus in the New Testament Gospels are for the most part heavily redacted or wholly invented sayings intended to edify the earliest Christians, many of whom were waiting for Jesus to return from Heaven. Unfortunately, the Church today often proclaims these texts to be the Word of God, even though scholars – many of them committed Christians – long ago discredited them as inauthentic.

It must however be remembered that the inventors of the revised words were convinced that Jesus did utter these sayings. As such, they were not acting deceptively, but rather they believed that by their actions they were responding to a higher truth. Nevertheless, it does not alter the fact that these Christians told lies and that, since the lies are still with us in the Holy Scriptures, that the transmission of falsehood continues unabated.

Perhaps these early Christians knew that Jesus said these things because he communicated to them through spirit mediums, seers, and prophetesses?

Roger Pearse · 12-28-2009, 11:31 AM

Doubtless that is how Mr. Lüdemann acquired his information about how the human writers of the NT wrote, and what they were thinking when they did so.

Toto · 12-28-2009, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Doubtless that is how Mr. Lüdemann acquired his information about how the human writers of the NT wrote, and what they were thinking when they did so.

Is there a better methodology available?

Steven Carr · 12-28-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Doubtless that is how Mr. Lüdemann acquired his information about how the human writers of the NT wrote, and what they were thinking when they did so.

Doesn't Mr. Luedemann know that what Jesus said is written in the Bible?

The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it.

If the NT says Jesus and the Devil swapped Bible quotes in the desert, who is Mr. Luedemann to question that?

Toto · 12-28-2009, 11:56 AM

Gerd Lüdemann is D.Theol., University of Göttingen. That's how he knows. He has academic credentials.

Chaucer · 12-28-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Doubtless that is how Mr. Lüdemann acquired his information about how the human writers of the NT wrote, and what they were thinking when they did so.

Is there a better methodology available?

There is indeed another and much better methodology available than "spirit mediums, seers, and prophetesses", but the better methodology I allude to isn't perfect, for the simple reason that there is no perfect textual method of pre-Mediaeval history research available for those ancient eras at all. The best research in this field proceeds by gauging probabilities, never certainties. Now, I will gladly name that better methodology if some of you first show me that you fully understand that there is

A) No perfect one, and

B) Certain methods far superior to others.

If some of you show you understand both these concepts -- understanding them requires an I.Q. higher than a two-digit number -- I will name the better methodology.

Fair?

Chaucer

2-J · 12-28-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it.

As ever, that appears to be Roger's methodology...

avi · 12-28-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

The best research in this field proceeds by gauging probabilities,...

Ok, I'll bite.

However, first, I must freely acknowledge not possessing an IQ greater than two digits...

How does one "gauge probabilities" from tainted evidence?

avi

Roger Pearse · 12-28-2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Doubtless that is how Mr. Lüdemann acquired his information about how the human writers of the NT wrote, and what they were thinking when they did so.

Is there a better methodology available?

Than guesswork? I can think of one or two. I hope you can too!

Roger Pearse · 12-28-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Gerd Lüdemann is D.Theol., University of Göttingen. That's how he knows. He has academic credentials.

Excellent news. It made me chuckle, and wonder which part of an academic course conferred on him the ability to know what others think, I wonder (but only the thoughts of people safely dead who left no discussion of the subject, for some reason).

I appreciate you quoting this, Toto. But surely we can all see that this quote by Ludemann as given makes statements which no man living could know to be true? We have a fixed body of data about the NT and the people who wrote it, what they thought, and what they thought they were doing. None of it contains that stuff.

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12-28-2009, 11:31 AM	#2
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Doubtless that is how Mr. Lüdemann acquired his information about how the human writers of the NT wrote, and what they were thinking when they did so.

12-28-2009, 11:56 AM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Gerd Lüdemann is D.Theol., University of Göttingen. That's how he knows. He has academic credentials.

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