PhilosopherJay

Ben's thread on the Basis for the Crucifixion has me thinking about the plausibility of Mark's chronology for the crucifixion.

Mark has the cock crow twice, and says (15:1) "that straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate."

Romans considered morning to be after sunrise.

Mark also says [15:25] And it was the third hour, and they crucified him. The third hour. The third hour (tertia)varied for the Romans. (see http://www.roman-britain.org/calendar.htm) At the Winter Solstice it was from 9:02 - 9:46 A.M. and in the Summer Solstice, it was from 6:58 - 8:13. A.M.

In late March or Early April,the time of Passover, the Third hour, the hour of Jesus' crucifixion would be approximately, 8-9 A.M. Since the third hour was measured from sunrise, we may presume that sunrise was at 6:00 A.M.. Thus 6-7 A.M., the first hour, 7-8 A.M., the second hour and 8-9 A.M. the third hour.

This gives us a maximum of three hours for all of the following events:

1. High Priests consult about Jesus.
2. High Priests bind Jesus.
3. High Priests accompanies Jesus to Pilate.
4. Pilate interrogates Jesus
5. Many accusations against Jesus
6. Pilate interrogates Jesus again.
7. Transportation of Jesus, Pilate and Jewish leaders out to Feast area.
8. Transportation of Barnabas to Feast area
9. Pilate explains customs of releasing prisoner to crowd
10. Chief Priests Move the people to vote against Jesus.
11. Crowd votes to release Barabbas.
12. Crowd votes to crucify Jesus.
13. Jesus scourged
14. Jesus led away from Feast to the Praetorium
15. A whole band or company of soldiers are called together, and go into the Praetorium.
16. Jesus clothed in purple.
17. Jesus saluted and hailed as King of the Jews.
18. Jesus hit with reed
19. Romans bow to him.
20. Jesus changes back into his own clothes.
21. Jesus marches to be crucified.
22. Simon compelled to carry cross
23. Jesus offered wine mingled with myrrh. Jesus refuses it.
24. Jesus crucified.

Let us say that all these things are done extremely quickly.

1-3. It is difficult to believe that a contingent of high priests could decide on actions against Jesus, bind him, and transport him from the High Priest's palace to Pilate's palace in less than half an hour. We have to assume that there was some protocol to be followed in getting an audience with Pilate. Pilate would not just let a mob of 10 or 20 Jews suddenly walk in on him without finding out why they had come to him. Minimum Time: 1/2 hour.
4-6. This is basically a trial. We must assume that Herod would spend at least a 1/2 hour on the trial of an unknown man that would result in that man's death. Minimum Time: 1/2 hour.
7-8. We may assume that Herod would not have a Jewish Feast with hundreds or thousands of celebrating Jews going on right next to his palace. Let us assume that it is 1/4 mile away. Also we must assume that Herod has to prepare his guards and tell them what is going on. The high priests and their contingent and Herod and guards all march to the Jewish celebration. A contingent of soldiers have to go to a prison and get Barabbas and bring him to the feast. Minimum Time: 1/2 hour.
9-12. Pilate has to enter the feast and be introduced. He has to explain to the crowd what he is doing there and the custom that he is about to carry out. He has to explain who Jesus and Barabbas are and what they are charged with. The crowd has to be moved by the Jewish Priests. The crowd has to vote twice. Minimum Time: 1/2 hour.
13-14. We may assume that Jesus gets off with a light scourging for 5 or 10 minutes. Still, escorting him back to the Praetorium after the scourging must take some time. Minimum Time 1/2 hour.
15. A whole band or company of soldiers might be in their barracks, but they might also be on duty in various parts of the city during a feast day. By band or company, Mark may mean a legion which is 6,000 men. Minimum Time: 1/2 hour.
16-20. Finding or making a King's purple costume must have taken some time. Undressing, dressing and redressing Jesus and mocking him would also take at least a few minutes. Minimum Time: 1/4 hour.
21-22. It is hard to say how far the Praetorium was from the city gates or how far Golgotta was from the city gates. But Jesus would have been carrying a cross wieghing of over 100 lbs. so he would not have been able to move very fast. Minimum Time: 1/2 hour.
23-24. The mixing and offering of the wine and the crucifixion need not have taken very long. Minimum Time: 1/4 hour.

Total Time:
1-3: 1/2 hour
4-6: 1/2 hour
7-8: 1/2 hour
9-12: 1/2 hour
13-14: 1/2 hour
15: 1/2 hour
16-20: 1/4 hour
21-22: 1/2 hour
23-14: 1/4 hour
_____________
Total: 4 hours.

It seems that even if we assume that events involving a huge number of people were done at incredibly fast pace, we cannot fit all of the events Mark describes into the 3 hour period that he has proclaimed.

If I said that I went from Florida to New York and then to Paris and to Sidney, to Tokyo, and then to Alaska and back to Florida, such a journey would be plausible. If I said that I did all those things from 6 A.M. to 9 A.M. on the same day, it would not be plausible.

Is there a way to shrink all these activities into a three hour time period?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay.

Transient

If a god was flying the plane I guess you could do it in 60 secs.
If we include the possibility that there is a god then it makes it impossible to work out what is impossible because with god all things are possible.
Checkmate unless we are going to exclude the possibility of a god - but then why should we?

Ben C Smith

I personally like the suggestion that the hours counted in Mark are liturgical; if so, I would not necessarily expect them to be plausible, much less historical. Additionally, your discussion did not get quite this far, but the darkness at noon (the sixth hour of Mark 15.33) appears to me to be based on Amos 8.9-10, so that part of the hour count would also be suspect as literal history, IMHO.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

BTW, this notion of the passion as liturgy comes from Goodacre, When Prophecy Became Passion: The Death of Jesus and the Birth of the Gospels, an article which used to be available online and is still available in the Google cache, at least for now.

Ben.

Newton's Cat

What was the storyline before the text was cunningly altered?

Why is Simon of Cyrene in the story?

The Bar Kochba revolt (132-135 ad) had it's origins in Cyrene in 116 ad. The revolt was led by Simon Bar Kochba ... who was claimed by some to be the Messiah.

Simon of Cyrene had two sons, Alexander and Rufus ... Simon Bar Kochba's son, Rufus, carried on the conflict after Simon was killed.

And they pressed into service (the word used refers to the Roman custom of getting travellers to carry messages for them) Simon of Cyrene .... the father of Alexander and Rufus, and they brought him to Golgotha and offered him wine spiced with myrrh (a soporific) ... and they crucified him.

The context is that Simon was an unwitting "replacement" for Jesus.

Mark's gospel was originally a play that was meant to be presented to a sophisticated intellectual audience.

And they put a sign on him THE KING OF THE JEWS ...

... (some time later):

... and the one's passing by blasphemed him .... they thought the broken and bloodied body on the cross was Jesus.

As for the soldiers humiliating Jesus ... simply leave out the crown of thorns, the striking of his head and the spitting on him and the scene is one of the soldiers acknowledging his "kingship".

Verse 15 means something like ... Pilate resolved to do something (to act upon his own will rather than the priests') to "sufficiently satisfy" the crowd.

I mean ... Mark's gospel begins with ALL the people of Jerusalem and ALL the people of Judaea flocking out to John the Baptist!

It IS a fact that one can strip the gospel of Mark of the interpolated alterations and end up with what is obviously a PLAY, a work of fiction meant to be performed in a theatre.

andrewcriddle

Can you give me ancient evidence for bar Kochba's revolt being continued by his son Rufus ?

Andrew Criddle

spamandham

Why are you even trying to determine if the scenario is plausible? Surely you don't think Mark was a modern journalist trying to accurately report 'just the facts'!!!?

dog-on

A play?

Solo

I know some here will be bored by this but I believe Mark's gospel mimics throughout the "speedy times" or the"enhanced time experience" of people possessed by the spirit (whom in our day and age we call "manic") as well as disruptions of cicardian rhythm. Note the suggested continuous action after the Last Supper flowing into the trial through the night and morning leading straightaway into the passion narrative. Important here is also the "prediction" of Jesus (14:20) that Peter's denial of him will come as nocturnal distress.

Jiri

JoeWallack

JW:
Exxxcellent (wringing hands together). Everything's falling into place:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_15

JW:
The External evidence already indicates that the setting for "Mark" is closer to Bar Kochba c. 132 than the first Temple destruction c. 70:

The Tale Wagging The Dogma. Which "Mark" Wrote "Mark"? A Dear John Letter

The Internal evidence also evidences a later date and I think the Simon of Cyrene in 15:21 refers to Roman History by Cassius Dio

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...s_Dio/68*.html

The "source" for the Jewish midevil claims of Rufus as son of Simon is likely the historical Rufus, who was governor at the time. The combination of names here, Simon, Cyrene and Rufus, in a Gospel notorius for using names as a literary tool, combined with the theme of substitution/replacement for Jesus, makes it likely that "Mark" was familiar with the Kitos War. Additionally, Jesus famous command in the la-la to evacuate Jerusalem may be referring to the historical Rufus' command to evacuate Jerusalem in the Bar Kochba retaking of Jerusalem which foreshadowed the ultimate retaking of Israel 2,000 years later.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page