Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 09-03-2012, 11:35 PM

For some reason, not relevant here, I just listened to an hour of Joseph Atwill on youtube

He keep talking about "typology" which "proves" his thesis because of the many points of similarity between Josephus' account of the Jewish War and the gospels. It almost makes sense. But he has to rely on the fact that most of the early documents are lost or missing.

And the refrain is all about this is how governments control people.

My main objection to the idea that someone invented Christianity is still that you could invent something better if that were your aim.

stephan huller · 09-04-2012, 12:35 AM

The only example I can think of where an Imperial government invented a religion from scratch is the cult of Antinous. This religion only seems to have been influential while Hadrian lived. There are several difficulties with Atwill's thesis but the most problematic is that he simply doesn't understand what Christianity is. This is essential because it is difficult to argue convincingly that his 'Josephus religion' is anything similar to what we know Christianity to be in the late second century (the time which all of our information manifests itself - even from an earlier period.

Even if we posit that there was this 'original form' of Christianity, you have to demonstrate where the evidence is for its existence. To simply argue that Josephus invented something and define that something by what is convenient isn't enough. There has to be evidence for its existence independent of this artificial universe he is creating.

He simply doesn't know enough about the earliest interpretations of the New Testament to be taken seriously. It's all abstractions.

He doesn't understand Judaism either. Listening to this nonsense is like hearing chalk on a blackboard. This is silly.

Bullshit alert - "the crucifixion of Jesus is forty years to the day of the destruction of the temple" No it is not. Jesus was crucified in Nisan, the destruction of the temple is in Ab! WTF. How can someone make a basic mistake like this? Eisenman goes along with this? Clement of Alexandria says that it was more than forty years (I think 42 from memory). I can't listen to any more of this nonsense. There is a stream of never-ending nonsense coming out of his mouth.

Now he is saying that the Trinity - a concept I can't find any evidence for before the late second century - possibly the third century - is a representation of Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. But in Greek the 'holy Spirit' is not masculine but neuter. In Hebrew and Aramaic it is feminine. Why is the younger son identified as being of a different gender? Is he really going to argue that the concept was developed in Latin? So Josephus now developed his conceptions in Latin?

And what's up with his constant use of 'Hebraic'? This is mountainman theology taken to the next level.

Iskander · 09-04-2012, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

N/A

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

This is silly

It is nice to have you onboard

Kosh · 09-05-2012, 02:24 PM

If this were true, then wouldn't the Jewish Wars also parallel the Homeric epics? We've already seen that case made... :devil1:

stephan huller · 09-05-2012, 02:44 PM

This doesn't mean that the gospel has NOTHING to do with the Jewish wars. This is what is so dangerous with this hypothesis. There is something to it because at the most basic level the gospel points to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. It's the equivalent of Oedipus plucking out his eyes - i.e. it happens off stage where no one can see what is going on. The problem of course is that positing a crude conspiracy to explain the relationship by means of Josephus is downright silly. Again, Josephus may have been pardoned by Vespasian - again this is legendary - but to argue that this same man was recruited to fashion a new religion, is like catching your spouse in the act of adultery and trying to connect this to an assassination plot

Toto · 09-06-2012, 12:19 PM

Robert M. Price referred to his review of Atwill on yesterday's Bible Geek:

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm

Quote:

... Thinking his method justified by comparison to the ancient practice of scriptural typology, Atwill gives himself license to indulge in the most outrageous display of “parallelomania” ever seen. He connects widely separated dots and collects sets of incredibly far-fetched verbal correspondences, from gospel to gospel and between the gospels and Josephus, then uses them to create ostensible parallel accounts. Then he declares himself justified in borrowing names, themes, and intended references from one “parallel” account and reading them into the other, thus supplying “missing” features. Triumphantly, Atwill defies the reader to call it all coincidence, working out the math to show such correspondences could never be the product of chance. Well, of course they are not. They are the product of his own arbitrary gematria in the first place.

Quote:

There are indeed surprising parallels between Josephus and the gospels that traditional exegesis has never been able to deal with adequately, but surely the more natural theory is the old one, that the gospel writers wrote late enough to have borrowed from Josephus and did so. Thus, as per Edgar J. Goodspeed, Matthew 23:35 probably confuses the biblical prophet Zechariah son of Berechiah with the revolutionary martyr Zechariah son of Baruch whose death Josephus relates. But is this because Josephus and his committee of comedy writers are responsible for both references, meaning for us to read them in tandem, as Atwill avers? Or is it because Mathew read the information in Josephus and mixed it up (as Luke did Josephus’ references to Theudas the Magician and Judas the Galilean in Acts 5:36-37)?

stephan huller · 09-06-2012, 12:36 PM

I would argue that the gospels were corrupted by the same hand as the surviving texts of Josephus.

stephan huller · 09-06-2012, 12:37 PM

Eisenman just sent me a request to be friends on Linkdin. We used to be friends sort of. He's actually lived an interesting life. I like him as a person (as much as you can like someone you only know superficially). I just wish he'd give up on the DSS thing. It doesn't make sense. Adding allies like Atwill is only making it worse. Oops. I guess I am going to be dis-invited to this show.

Toto · 09-26-2012, 12:28 PM

Village Voice: new documentary

Tom Verenna: "No, Joe Atwill: Rome Did Not Invent Jesus"

The grand opening is two days away. The organizers have auspiciously scheduled it for the beginning of "Carmageddon" - when Caltrans will be shutting down the closest freeway to finish rebuilding it, and local officials are telling everyone to just stay home.

ApostateAbe · 09-26-2012, 12:51 PM

Atwill is among the few mythicists willing to provide sufficient details--specific times, specific places, specific people--the hypothesis is a complete train wreck, but that only adds to his courage. Most mythicist models are hopelessly ambiguous.

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09-03-2012, 11:35 PM	#11
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	For some reason, not relevant here, I just listened to an hour of Joseph Atwill on youtube He keep talking about "typology" which "proves" his thesis because of the many points of similarity between Josephus' account of the Jewish War and the gospels. It almost makes sense. But he has to rely on the fact that most of the early documents are lost or missing. And the refrain is all about this is how governments control people. My main objection to the idea that someone invented Christianity is still that you could invent something better if that were your aim.

09-04-2012, 12:35 AM	#12
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The only example I can think of where an Imperial government invented a religion from scratch is the cult of Antinous. This religion only seems to have been influential while Hadrian lived. There are several difficulties with Atwill's thesis but the most problematic is that he simply doesn't understand what Christianity is. This is essential because it is difficult to argue convincingly that his 'Josephus religion' is anything similar to what we know Christianity to be in the late second century (the time which all of our information manifests itself - even from an earlier period. Even if we posit that there was this 'original form' of Christianity, you have to demonstrate where the evidence is for its existence. To simply argue that Josephus invented something and define that something by what is convenient isn't enough. There has to be evidence for its existence independent of this artificial universe he is creating. He simply doesn't know enough about the earliest interpretations of the New Testament to be taken seriously. It's all abstractions. He doesn't understand Judaism either. Listening to this nonsense is like hearing chalk on a blackboard. This is silly. Bullshit alert - "the crucifixion of Jesus is forty years to the day of the destruction of the temple" No it is not. Jesus was crucified in Nisan, the destruction of the temple is in Ab! WTF. How can someone make a basic mistake like this? Eisenman goes along with this? Clement of Alexandria says that it was more than forty years (I think 42 from memory). I can't listen to any more of this nonsense. There is a stream of never-ending nonsense coming out of his mouth. Now he is saying that the Trinity - a concept I can't find any evidence for before the late second century - possibly the third century - is a representation of Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. But in Greek the 'holy Spirit' is not masculine but neuter. In Hebrew and Aramaic it is feminine. Why is the younger son identified as being of a different gender? Is he really going to argue that the concept was developed in Latin? So Josephus now developed his conceptions in Latin? And what's up with his constant use of 'Hebraic'? This is mountainman theology taken to the next level.

09-05-2012, 02:24 PM	#14
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	If this were true, then wouldn't the Jewish Wars also parallel the Homeric epics? We've already seen that case made... :devil1:

09-05-2012, 02:44 PM	#15
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	This doesn't mean that the gospel has NOTHING to do with the Jewish wars. This is what is so dangerous with this hypothesis. There is something to it because at the most basic level the gospel points to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. It's the equivalent of Oedipus plucking out his eyes - i.e. it happens off stage where no one can see what is going on. The problem of course is that positing a crude conspiracy to explain the relationship by means of Josephus is downright silly. Again, Josephus may have been pardoned by Vespasian - again this is legendary - but to argue that this same man was recruited to fashion a new religion, is like catching your spouse in the act of adultery and trying to connect this to an assassination plot

09-06-2012, 12:36 PM	#17
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I would argue that the gospels were corrupted by the same hand as the surviving texts of Josephus.

09-06-2012, 12:37 PM	#18
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Eisenman just sent me a request to be friends on Linkdin. We used to be friends sort of. He's actually lived an interesting life. I like him as a person (as much as you can like someone you only know superficially). I just wish he'd give up on the DSS thing. It doesn't make sense. Adding allies like Atwill is only making it worse. Oops. I guess I am going to be dis-invited to this show.

09-26-2012, 12:28 PM	#19
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Village Voice: new documentary Tom Verenna: "No, Joe Atwill: Rome Did Not Invent Jesus" The grand opening is two days away. The organizers have auspiciously scheduled it for the beginning of "Carmageddon" - when Caltrans will be shutting down the closest freeway to finish rebuilding it, and local officials are telling everyone to just stay home.

09-26-2012, 12:51 PM	#20
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Atwill is among the few mythicists willing to provide sufficient details--specific times, specific places, specific people--the hypothesis is a complete train wreck, but that only adds to his courage. Most mythicist models are hopelessly ambiguous.

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