Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-31-2012, 08:27 PM

Events

Quote:

WORLD PREMIERE FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 28TH
Joe Atwill, Robert Eisenman, and the filmmakers will answer questions following the premiere screening -Q & A will be filmed.

Laemmle's Music Hall 3
9036 Wilshire Blvd. • Beverly Hills, 90211
310-478-3836

Full week run Sept. 28th to Oct. 4th, 2012

PLUS Special Event Friday October 5th

c3: The Center for Conscious Creativity invites you to Visions From the Edge:
The Future of Religion

featuring Bible scholars from the Caesar's Messiah documentary presenting stunning evidence of the "real" origins of Christianity

JosephAtwill Robert Eisenman Rod Blackhirst Kenneth Humphreys
Joseph Atwill and Prof. Robert Eisenman in person,
Dr. Rod Blackhirst via Skype from Australia, and Kenneth Humphreys via Skype from England,
and more...

Vortex Dome
At the Vortex Dome at Los Angeles Center Studios
1037 West 6th Street - Los Angeles, CA 90017
(818) 590-1680

6:30-7:30pm Gourmet Food Trucks & Networking
7:30-9:30pm Scholars' panel, Q&A, film clips
(Panel & Q&A will be filmed)
9:30pm - Reception

I hadn't realized that Atwill had this much momentum. This is all in my neighborhood (roughly) - I wonder if I should think of going. . .

stephan huller · 08-31-2012, 10:43 PM

I know Blackhirst. We've corresponded. He's an expert on the Gospel of Barnabas.

MrMacSon · 08-31-2012, 10:44 PM

Sounds very interesting ....

Quote:

....Like others, Atwill was hoping to learn something of Christian origins in the 2,000 year old documents found at Qumran. To assist in his understanding of them, Atwill began studying the history of the era.

It was then that Joseph Atwill came across the key that led to his discoveries. "While reading Josephus' War of the Jews, and his account of Titus' destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE," Atwill recounts, "I noticed some curious parallels. At first I could make no sense of the parallels between Titus' campaign and Jesus' ministry. So I tried to look at the Gospels with fresh eyes, as if I had never seen them before, giving up any preconceived notions about what they meant." This perspective resulted in the discoveries Atwill presents in Caesar's Messiah and his soon-to-be-published book, The Single Strand. A Roman imperial family, the Flavians, had created Christianity, and, even more incredibly, they had placed a literary satire within the Gospels and War of the Jews to inform posterity of this fact.

http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/About/about.html

He's prepared to give a good defence, too -

http://caesarsmessiah.com/blog/2012/...siah/#more-195
.

stephan huller · 08-31-2012, 10:44 PM

Eisenmann used to be embarrassed by Atwill. He used to be concerned that Atwill was using his name to promote his book. How time changes our memory ...

DCHindley · 09-01-2012, 05:54 AM

Toto,

As I remember, the "Los Angeles area" is pretty damn big (I used to live in Silverlake near the park and later next to LAX years ago, as well as for business numerous times since). But if you could catch one of the showings then I for one would be interested in a resume of what was presented.

It isn't clear to me how a study of the relationship of the gospels and the DSS and Josephus' War would lead to the conclusion that the Flavians intentionally created Christianity, and left clues to it to boot for the sake of posterity.

I can understand someone proposing that Paul was a Herodian "double agent" intent on derailing a world-revolution expecting Jesus movement into a non-threating track as a mystery religion (if so he was ultimately successful).

But if the Flavians created Christianity, why did they condemn it and later emperors never exposed this satire to the embarassment of the Christians?

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I hadn't realized that Atwill had this much momentum. This is all in my neighborhood (roughly) - I wonder if I should think of going. . .

PhilosopherJay · 09-01-2012, 07:21 AM

Hi DCHindley,

I remember reading Atwill's book about 10 years ago. I did not find any of his evidence or arguments substantial.

To use a comic book analogy (as I often like to do), it is kind of like believing that the Republican Party created "Batman" to attack Franklin Roosevelt's social welfare programs of the 1930's.

The "Batman" comics certainly did have a conservative point of view. it portrays lazy, rich playboys as secretly being dedicated and heroic crime fighters. It does not portray them as being diabolical parasitic exploiters of the working class, stealing and living on the work of others.

It portrays criminals, not as poor, ordinary, oppressed people with no options or economic opportunities, but as psychopathic vicious inhuman monsters.

It denies that the public government can function well enough to protect people and endorses private secrets actions by the wealthy to bring about a just society.

Because this is an ideology that the Republican party endorsed in the 1930's, this does not mean they had a conspiracy to create "Batman," although, it may seem that way.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Toto,

As I remember, the "Los Angeles area" is pretty damn big (I used to live in Silverlake near the park and later next to LAX years ago, as well as for business numerous times since). But if you could catch one of the showings then I for one would be interested in a resume of what was presented.

It isn't clear to me how a study of the relationship of the gospels and the DSS and Josephus' War would lead to the conclusion that the Flavians intentionally created Christianity, and left clues to it to boot for the sake of posterity.

I can understand someone proposing that Paul was a Herodian "double agent" intent on derailing a world-revolution expecting Jesus movement into a non-threating track as a mystery religion (if so he was ultimately successful).

But if the Flavians created Christianity, why did they condemn it and later emperors never exposed this satire to the embarassment of the Christians?

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I hadn't realized that Atwill had this much momentum. This is all in my neighborhood (roughly) - I wonder if I should think of going. . .

Roger Pearse · 09-01-2012, 01:23 PM

I do enjoy obvious scams like Atwill's. And they can be really valuable to us. It's an excellent opportunity to work out what is wrong with them; to take two or these of these "what really happened" pieces of doo-doo, and note the commonalities; the contempt for the evidence, except when it suits the theory; the tendency to take a supposition as a proven fact; the selection, omission and misrepresentation; and whatever other things all these theories have.

If we could compile an index of the fallacies, it might be very useful in examining other books of this kind.

Toto · 09-01-2012, 03:04 PM

The puzzlement for me is that Atwill is a successful retired businessman with an education that allows him to read the original documents, with no particular need that I can see to push this theory.

He has this quote prominently on his webpage:

Quote:

Joseph Atwill, author of Caesar's Messiah, says, “My book is in no way a criticism of the faith of contemporary Christians. I felt required to present my findings because of the light they shed on the origin and purpose both of anti-Semitism and the way that governments use propaganda to control their subjects.”

I'm not clear how this all fits together.

Roger Pearse · 09-01-2012, 03:12 PM

I've seen some extreme Jewish Orthodox anti-Christian groups who come out with material like this. I would guess that Mr Atwill is being influenced from that direction. We're not used to Jewish anti-Christian material; most of the stuff we see is old protestant anti-Catholic material adapted by atheists for anti-Christian use.

aa5874 · 09-01-2012, 07:00 PM

It must not be forgotten that Josephus did declare that Vespasian was the prophesied Messianic ruler found in Hebrew Scripture and this is corroborated by Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio.

See Josephus' "Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4, Suetonius' "Life of Vespasian", Tacitus' "Histories" 5, and Cassius Dio's "Roman History".

Suentonius did also state that Vespasian performed miracles when he caused a blind man to see using spit and healed the lame by touch. See Suetonius "Life of Vespasian".

It is hardly likely that the Jesus cult was started by the very Romans who believed Vespasian and even Titus were prophesied Messianic rulers.

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08-31-2012, 10:43 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I know Blackhirst. We've corresponded. He's an expert on the Gospel of Barnabas.

08-31-2012, 10:44 PM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Eisenmann used to be embarrassed by Atwill. He used to be concerned that Atwill was using his name to promote his book. How time changes our memory ...

09-01-2012, 01:23 PM	#7
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	I do enjoy obvious scams like Atwill's. And they can be really valuable to us. It's an excellent opportunity to work out what is wrong with them; to take two or these of these "what really happened" pieces of doo-doo, and note the commonalities; the contempt for the evidence, except when it suits the theory; the tendency to take a supposition as a proven fact; the selection, omission and misrepresentation; and whatever other things all these theories have. If we could compile an index of the fallacies, it might be very useful in examining other books of this kind.

09-01-2012, 03:12 PM	#9
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	I've seen some extreme Jewish Orthodox anti-Christian groups who come out with material like this. I would guess that Mr Atwill is being influenced from that direction. We're not used to Jewish anti-Christian material; most of the stuff we see is old protestant anti-Catholic material adapted by atheists for anti-Christian use.

09-01-2012, 07:00 PM	#10
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	It must not be forgotten that Josephus did declare that Vespasian was the prophesied Messianic ruler found in Hebrew Scripture and this is corroborated by Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio. See Josephus' "Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4, Suetonius' "Life of Vespasian", Tacitus' "Histories" 5, and Cassius Dio's "Roman History". Suentonius did also state that Vespasian performed miracles when he caused a blind man to see using spit and healed the lame by touch. See Suetonius "Life of Vespasian". It is hardly likely that the Jesus cult was started by the very Romans who believed Vespasian and even Titus were prophesied Messianic rulers.

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