Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Switch89 · 10-21-2008, 11:53 PM

I am looking for ancient historical documents written before the gospels which tell of gods or religious practices similar to Christianity. An example would be Carrier's reference to Zalmoxis in Herodotus (I am also curious: Which ancient document tells of the crucifixion of Inanna?).

Steven Carr · 10-22-2008, 04:27 AM

2 Peter refers to Tartarus.

I guess his readers were as baffled by this as modern Christians would be by the Pope claiming that he was going to go to Valhalla when he died.

Unless Christians had imported the pagan concept of Tartarus....

mountainman · 10-22-2008, 06:18 AM

Ammianus Marcellinus makes the following observation on the (translation of) the heiroglyphics on an Egyptian obelisk which was ripped from its foundations and brought to Rome:

Quote:

17. Now the text
of the characters cut upon the ancient obelisk which
we see in the Circus I add below in the Greek
translation, following the work of Hermapion. The
translation of the first line, beginning on the South
side, reads as follows:

FIRST LINE

18. The Sun speaks to King Ramestes.
I have granted to thee that thou
shouldst with joy rule over the whole earth,
thou whom the Sun loveth - and powerful Apollo, lover
of truth, son of Heron, god-born, creator of the
world, whom the Sun hath chosen, the doughty
son of Mars, King Ramestes. Unto him the whole
earth is made subject through his valour and boldness.
King Ramastes, eternal child of the Sun."

SECOND LINE

19. "Mighty Apollo, seated upon truth, Lord of
the Diadem, who hath gloroiusly honoured Egypt
as his peculiar possession, who hath beautiful Heliopolis,
created the rest of the world, and adorned
with manifold honours the Gods erected in Heliopolis -
he whom the Sun loveth."

THIRD LINE

20. "Mighty Apollo, child of the sun, all-radiant,
whom the Sun hath chosen and valiant Mars endowed;
whose blessings shall endure forever; whom
Ammon loveth, as having filled his temple with the
good fruits of the date palm; unto whom the Gods
have given length of life.
"Apollo, mighty son of Heron, Ramestes, king
of the world, who hath preserved Egypt by conquering
other nations; whom the Sun loveth; to who the Gods
have granted length of life; Lord of the world,
Ramestes ever-living."

WEST SIDE, SECOND LINE

21. "The Sun, great God, Lord of Heaven;
I have granted to thee life hitherto unforseen.
Apollo the mighty, Lord incomparable of the Diadem,
who hath set up statues of the Gods in this kingdom,
ruler of Egypt, and he ardorned Heliopolis just as
he did the Sun himself, Ruler of Heaven; he finished
a good work, child of the Sun, the king ever-living."

THIRD LINE

22. "The God Sun, Lord of Heaven, to Ramastes
the king. I have granted to thee the rule and the
authority over all men; whom Apollo, lover of truth,
Lord of seasons, and Vulcan, father of the Gods,
hath chosen for Mars. King all-gladdening, child of
the Sun and beloved of the Sun."

EAST SIDE, FIRST LINE

23. "The great God of Heliopolis, heavenly,
mighty Apollo, son of Heron, whom the Sun hath
loved, whom the Gods hath honoured, the ruler over
all the earth, whom the SUn hath chosen, a king
valiant for Mars, whom Ammon loveth, and he that
is all-radiant, having set apart the king eternal";
and so on.

Best wishes,

Pete

yalla · 10-22-2008, 06:30 AM

T. Thompson's book "The Messiah Myth (or via: amazon.co.uk)' has as its theme the idea that many Mediterranean and nearby cultures used similar themes which are included in Christianity, notably David and Jesus. He spends hundreds of pages giving examples thatt relate to several themes [kingdom of god, good king,holy warrior, dying rising god, holy war,good king, bad king,] from varying regions eg Egypt, Mesopatamia, Greek and Palestine.
Sort of like the examples in post #3 above but with more examples, detail and parallels.
Its an interesting read.

mountainman · 10-22-2008, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch89

I am looking for ancient historical documents written before the gospels which tell of gods or religious practices similar to Christianity.

Dear Switch89,

Also look at Healing God of Asclepius for whom not only is there ample citation in the literature, but for whom the archaeological citations are abundantly frequent all across the entire Roman empire for the period 500 BCE to 500 CE. Notably, while Constantine destroyed the architecture, and executed the present priests of that religion, Eusebius calumnified its recent famous adherents, such as Apollonius of Tyana for whom an inscription has been found, in greek, with the following translation by C. P. Jones:

Quote:

'This man, named after Apollo,
and shining forth Tyana,
extinguished the faults of men.
The tomb in Tyana (received) his body,
but in truth heaven received him
so that he might drive out the pains of men
(or:drive pains from among men) .'

Best wishes,

Pete

spamandham · 10-22-2008, 09:13 AM

I think Philo's Logos concept counts. Also, the story of the 153 fish in John is a rip off from Pythagoreanism.

Loomis · 10-22-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch89

I am looking for ancient historical documents written before the gospels which tell of gods or religious practices similar to Christianity.

I think you’re making a mistake. The phase “similar to Christianity” is the mistake, and it’s going to take you on a wild goose chase that leads nowhere.

Christianity evolved out of older stories and older religions. It’s still evolving. There has never been a unified Christianity. Not in the bible. Not anywhere.

The phase “pagan” is also almost useless.

The phrase “before the gospels” is also a mistake because overlooks the fact that the gospels evolved.

Switch89 · 10-23-2008, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch89

I am looking for ancient historical documents written before the gospels which tell of gods or religious practices similar to Christianity.

I think you’re making a mistake. The phase “similar to Christianity” is the mistake, and it’s going to take you on a wild goose chase that leads nowhere.

Christianity evolved out of older stories and older religions. It’s still evolving. There has never been a unified Christianity. Not in the bible. Not anywhere.

The phase “pagan” is also almost useless.

The phrase “before the gospels” is also a mistake because overlooks the fact that the gospels evolved.

What I mean is this: I am looking for ancient religious writings which show that some or all of the major themes of Christianity (Resurrection of a godman, forgiveness of sins, and so on) were present in other religions from before 30 AD or so.

spamandham · 10-23-2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch89

What I mean is this: I am looking for ancient religious writings which show that some or all of the major themes of Christianity (Resurrection of a godman, forgiveness of sins, and so on) were present in other religions from before 30 AD or so.

Although an interesting exercise, it isn't really necessary. Most of the ideas presented by Paul and the Gospels are presented in a matter of fact way that indicates they were a noncontroversial aspect of the zeitgeist. This is enough to realize the ideas were not novel.

No Robots · 10-23-2008, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Most of the ideas presented by Paul and the Gospels are presented in a matter of fact way that indicates they were a noncontroversial aspect of the zeitgeist. This is enough to realize the ideas were not novel.

For espousing these "noncontroversial" ideas, Paul and others were beaten, stoned, arrested and executed.

10-21-2008, 11:53 PM	#1
Switch89 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Montgomery, AL Posts: 453	Were there Pagan Parallels to Christianity? I am looking for ancient historical documents written before the gospels which tell of gods or religious practices similar to Christianity. An example would be Carrier's reference to Zalmoxis in Herodotus (I am also curious: Which ancient document tells of the crucifixion of Inanna?).

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10-22-2008, 04:27 AM	#2
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	2 Peter refers to Tartarus. I guess his readers were as baffled by this as modern Christians would be by the Pope claiming that he was going to go to Valhalla when he died. Unless Christians had imported the pagan concept of Tartarus....

10-22-2008, 06:30 AM	#4
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	T. Thompson's book "The Messiah Myth (or via: amazon.co.uk)' has as its theme the idea that many Mediterranean and nearby cultures used similar themes which are included in Christianity, notably David and Jesus. He spends hundreds of pages giving examples thatt relate to several themes [kingdom of god, good king,holy warrior, dying rising god, holy war,good king, bad king,] from varying regions eg Egypt, Mesopatamia, Greek and Palestine. Sort of like the examples in post #3 above but with more examples, detail and parallels. Its an interesting read.

10-22-2008, 09:13 AM	#6
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	I think Philo's Logos concept counts. Also, the story of the 153 fish in John is a rip off from Pythagoreanism.

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