Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 11-06-2011, 08:31 PM

We have all seen invectives cast at those who make the claim that the new testament figure of Jesus was really related to the Universal God living inside the Hubble Limit. We have also seen invectives cast at those who make the antithetical claim that the new testament and the figure of Jesus is really nothing more than a pious forgery perpetrated on the Roman Empire in antiquity.

Those casting these latter invectives may not appreciate the case for fiction, so I have taken the liberty of citing the WIKI page on Jesus Myth Theory which cites Robert Price's list of 4 senses in which Jesus Christ may be said to be a fiction.

Quote:

Meaning of "fiction"

In the Jesus: Fact or Fiction? debate between Dr. Robert Price and Rev. John Rankin, Price states "there are four senses in which Jesus Christ may be said to be a 'fiction:'"

1."the central figure of the gospels is not based on any historical individual", i.e. the Gospel is little more than "a synthetic construct of theologians, a symbolic 'Uncle Sam' figure."

2."the "historical Jesus" reconstructed by New Testament scholars is always a reflection of the individual scholars who reconstruct him" to the point that "even if there was a historical Jesus lying back of the gospel Christ, he can never be recovered. If there ever was a historical Jesus, there isn't one any more."

3."Jesus as the personal savior, with whom people claim, as I used to, to have a 'personal relationship' is in the nature of the case a fiction, essentially a psychological projection, an 'imaginary playmate.'"

4."Christ is a fiction in that Christ functions, in an unnoticed and equivocal way, as shorthand for a vast system of beliefs and institutions on whose behalf he is invoked."

Doug Shaver · 11-07-2011, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

We have all seen invectives cast at those who make the claim that the new testament figure of Jesus was really related to the Universal God living inside the Hubble Limit.

Not me. I have never even seen that claim, let alone any invectives cast at it.

mountainman · 11-07-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

We have all seen invectives cast at those who make the claim that the new testament figure of Jesus was really related to the Universal God living inside the Hubble Limit.

Not me. I have never even seen that claim, let alone any invectives cast at it.

Have you seen or read Emperor Julian's invectives? He may not have had the benefit of reading Edwin Hubble, but the words Julian puts into the mouth of the figure of Jesus are meant to be performed in front of a crowd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JESUS via Emperor Julian

"He that is a seducer, he that is a murderer,
he that is sacrilegious and infamous,
let him approach without fear!
For with this water will I wash him
and will straightway make him clean.

And though he should be guilty
of those same sins a second time,
let him but smite his breast and beat his head
and I will make him clean again."

And of course you could not have seen any invectives cast at the hypothetical and antithetical claim that the new testament and the figure of Jesus is really nothing more than a pious forgery perpetrated on the Roman Empire in antiquity.

We can see that Emperor Julian describes the 4th century christians as breast smiters and head beaters, and it was perhaps for this reason that he legalized their change of formal name in the Roman Empire to "Galilaeans".

Nevermind. Carry on. I can see that you are not too inclined to address the OP in Price's statement "there are four senses in which Jesus Christ may be said to be a 'fiction."

Doug Shaver · 11-08-2011, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Nevermind. Carry on. I can see that you are not too inclined to address the OP in Price's statement "there are four senses in which Jesus Christ may be said to be a 'fiction."

What's to address? I agree that the stories about Jesus Christ originated as works of fiction. I happen to be pretty familiar with Price's work on the subject, and by and large I agree with what he has to say about it.

mountainman · 11-09-2011, 09:27 PM

It's interesting to note that the "four senses in which Jesus Christ may be said to be a 'fiction." have been drived from only a part of the evidence - the canonical new testament. The evidence from the non canonical Gnostic books suggests Jesus and the Apostles were fictional characters wandering around romantic fables with fantastic and striking details.

"severely conditoned responses to Jesus ... usually these authors deny his humanity"

[Robert M. Grant]

The Gnostics also pointed to Jesus as a wildly romantic and fictional myth.
So maybe the heretics in antiquity were just trying to tell the historical truth.

11-09-2011, 09:27 PM	#5
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	It's interesting to note that the "four senses in which Jesus Christ may be said to be a 'fiction." have been drived from only a part of the evidence - the canonical new testament. The evidence from the non canonical Gnostic books suggests Jesus and the Apostles were fictional characters wandering around romantic fables with fantastic and striking details. "severely conditoned responses to Jesus ... usually these authors deny his humanity" [Robert M. Grant] The Gnostics also pointed to Jesus as a wildly romantic and fictional myth. So maybe the heretics in antiquity were just trying to tell the historical truth.

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