Chris Weimer

Not quite, although what exactly Matthew says depends on the particular school you belong to. Some say Matthew effectively abolishes the entire Law, some say that Matthew upholds the entire Law. Which gospels, can I ask, support the following of the Law?

αμην γαρ λεγω υμιν εως αν παρελθη ο ουρανος και η γη ιωτα εν η μια κεραια ου μη παρελθη απο του νομου εως [αν] παντα γενηται.

Amen! For I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, let neither one iota nor one stroke pass away from the law, until everything is fulfilled.

Notice the structure - why does Matthew use εως αν twice? Is he saying both until heaven and earth pass away and everything is fulfilled, as Cege has taken up? I doubt it. Sounds superfluous. Unnecessarily complex. I think what we see here is Matthew's redactional hand - incorporating his source with his own thoughts. His source is clearly pro-Law - the following verses, as Davies noted, shows that his source has Jesus uttering the command about keeping every iota and stroke, and then further goes on to clarify certain precepts in the Torah.

But Matthew has taken it and turned it into something along the lines of keeping the Torah, but only until after the crucifixion and subsequent temple destruction.

You're amused pretty easily, aren't you? Perhaps you just don't comprehend what Matthew is doing?

Chris Weimer

Whoever said that it was?

Cege

Thanks for providing the Greek: αμην γαρ λεγω υμιν εως αν παρελθη ο ουρανος και η γη ιωτα εν η μια κεραια ου μη παρελθη απο του νομου εως [αν] παντα γενηται.

Could it be that εως αν was used twice for emphasis?

GMatthew's author reads to me as to encourage keeping OT law, even after the destruction of the temple, although Jesus' emphasis during his ministry (according to GMatthew) is more on moral law than ceremonial law. The destruction of the temple in 70AD left the Jews without a place for ceremonial sacrificing of animal blood but not a reason to discontinue observing moral laws.

The NT overall teaches that Jesus became/replaced the sacrificial Lamb that takes away sin, so that ceremony was no longer needed for men to be forgiven by God, but the NT also emphasizes that Christians (defined as those who believe Jesus is the Lamb that takes away sin, etc) must refrain from sexual immorality, hatred toward others, greed, etc

GMatthew makes those same distinctions.

Steven Avery

Acts 15:19-21
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them,
which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols,
and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Hi Joan,

Why can't you ?
In some Christian circles this is the common understanding,
also that Acts 15 is affirming the Decalogue sabbath.

(Leaving aside the exact definition of "kosher food" at least it would
mean kosher slaughter and abstaining from the unclean scavernger animals.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by I. C. Unicorns There was arguments within the churches whether it was okay for gentiles to eat animals that were used as sacrifices of other religions.... I think this doesn't involve kosher laws ...

That is a difficult application for "things strangled, and from blood" since this is exactly in line with kashrut. Things strangled do not have the blood drained out in the way described in Tanach where the heart continues to pump out the blood of the slaughtered animal. With strangled you have that blood in the meat.

As for the issue about stoning, the posters above are confusing the issues of the nature of law .. and the penalities for disobedience. The command to honor thy father and mother is part of God's eternal law.

Shalom,
Steven

squiz

Your friend claims that the Mosaic Law has been superceded by Faith, which is indeed the standard Christian interpretation and is supported by much of the Pauline writings as quoted above, even if it is nonsensical.

Anyway, when I was growing up as an evangelical Christian, I noticed that most such Christians only pay lip service to this idea of the Law having been superceded by faith, and in fact have replaced much of that Law with laws of their own. Many of these Laws have since died out, or are only observed by more puritanical groups, but I think you will find that many still apply, even though they often have no biblical basis whatsoever.

Ask your friend whether he obeys the following rules and why:
No alcohol
No smoking
No swearing (not just saying "God", which is in the 10 commandments, but also "obscene" words)
No gambling

These rules have probably nearly died out, but there might be some still around who follow them:
No dancing
Hats in Church for women (Marge and Lisa Simpson still follow this one)
No working, sport or even fun on Sunday (see Chariots of Fire)

Chris Weimer

Perhaps? But totally unrelated to this passage, years ago I tenuously posited that Matthew 1.22-23 was an interpolation based on a) the doublet that formed with Emmanuel and Iesous, and b) the apparent contradiction of the two. I'm now guessing that instead of an interpolation, it's one of the apparent characteristics of the redactor - i.e. the reduplication of certain passages of Matthew's source to fit his Christology? It's an issue to be explored.

It's not "laws" that we're worried about, it's the Law, ho nomos, ha Torah.

Cege

squiz, you and I must have been growing up about the same time, even if not the same place. The rules/laws you list are familiar to me, as well, and I think they are still accepted as rule/law to the general evanglical Christian groups, even while many members still break several or all of the rules.

I think they do have some Biblical basis, though, in the epistles. As are all rules and directions set out in the NT, it is a matter of interpretation by the individual as well as by denomination, and views have varied in "popularity" over the past 2000 years as well.

No alcohol - Romans 13:13, 1 Corinthians 5:11, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:18
No smoking- 1 Cor 6:19-20, Rom 12:1
No swearing (not just saying "God", which is in the 10 commandments, but also "obscene" words) - Ephesians 4:29, 1 Peter 3:10, James 3:9-12
No gambling - 1 Timothy 6:10, Hebrews 13:5
Hats in Church for women- 1 Cor 11: 5-6
No dancing - 1 Corinthians 7:1-3

If you look up those scriptures, you'll see some sho'nuff liberal (but not many literal) interpretations to make a case for any of those "laws" :angel:

No working, sport or even fun on Sunday- I can't make any case from the NT for Christian support of an OT sabbath-type day.

Gawen

The OT laws, all of them, are binding forever; every one of them and I can back this up:
Psalms 119: 152: Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
153: Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy law.
154: Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.
155: Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes. 156: Great are thy tender mercies, O LORD: quicken me according to thy judgments.
157: Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies.
158: I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.
159: Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O LORD, according to thy lovingkindness.
160: Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

And the Law is perfect:
Psalms 19:7: The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

If Christians want to keep saying over and over and over again that the bible is the word of God and that they love this God then they should not ignore the instructions he gave to his followers long before some guy named Paul showed up with his new doctrine of faith in human blood sacrifice.
Deuteronomy11:1: Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always.
Deuteronomy 6:2,5,24-25: That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged. And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

What I don’t understand is why Christians call themselves Christians when the man they keep citing is Paul. Paul may have said the law is over or fulfilled, but that is not what Jesus said. In Revelation Jesus makes it clear that the law is the ticket to salvation:
Revelation 14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Will get back to you as soon as I can. I'm in the middle of a tornado warning...

Gawen

Well, that was fun. But it ain't over yet.

Jesus says he has not come to destroy the law (which is what, in effect, Paul did):
Matthew 5:17-20: Think not that I am come to destroy the law...
Now you may argue that Jesus does say he came to fulfill but what does that mean? If he meant to negate the law than he is an idiot because he contradicts himself flatly in the next verse in this passage and in Revelation. Jesus makes it clear you have to obey every iota of the commandments. Every single commandment is binding and valid:
Matthew 5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The word “fulfilled” here is clearly a bad translation, is that not right Chris? The context of the passage requires that the word actually be “uphold” or “continue” or “enforce” or so I'm told. The rest of the passage has Jesus stating that the law lasts forever and that the law is the key to salvation. If one insists on the word “fulfill” one is reducing Jesus to an incoherent blathering idiot (not that it’s difficult to do) who says one thing at the beginning of the passage:
Matthew 5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy…
And then proceeds to contradict himself with his next three words:”…but to fulfill…”. And then backtracks from that momentary lapse in reason to continue his original train of thought for the balance of the passage stating in no uncertain terms that God’s Law saves and that no one may seek to change it or teach others to do so:
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

There is no scriptural support for the assertion that Jesus fulfilled God’s Law. Has all been fulfilled? Was it all fulfilled with Jesus’ death? How do we know all has not been fulfilled? Look at the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation states quite clearly that all will be finished and accomplished at some mysterious indeterminate point in the future. For example, Revelation 17:17 shows that all - the word of God - has not been fulfilled: For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Have heaven and earth passed away? No. And the law is to be obeyed until they do. If everything were accomplished already, the following verse is meaningless:
Revelation 10:7: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished (accomplished), as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Obviously, Jesus’ death accomplished nothing and the Law is still binding just as it was the day God delivered it to Moses.

Gamera

You've created a false dichotomy that is not in the Christian scriptures. Jesus and Paul and James and the author of Hebrews are saying either you accept the gospel and its grace or you are under law. And if you are under law, you 're toast. So the law is indeed eternal. It will destroy those who don't escape it by accepting grace.

So circling back, Christians are not under law, thank God.